To rei or not to rei

[Eldritch Knight]

I'm in the middle of starting a kendo club at my college, and am having a slight disagreement with the sensei (he's a a 3rd dan, Korean; I'm shodan and trained in Japan). I'm used to bowing twice prior to each class: once to the dojo-kami (the Shinto god protecting the dojo) and once to the sensei. However, my sensei has decided to omit the bow to the kami for our club, saying that it is actually to the Japanese ancestors, and thus to war criminals who commited atrocities against Korea. I know that this is a touchy subject, and thus decided to let it rest for now, but I feel that the kami is essential to having a true dojo, and that not respecting it leaves something lacking from the club. Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions to this?

[Will]

We do a third rei, to each other...beginners and senseis.

[stuartwilson]

Sounds like he has an axe to grind. Why don't you suggest that all bow in respect to all the sensei who came before (no matter where they came from), who passed down this art for us to enjoy?

[xvikingx]

Or you could just do what he says, practice kendo, and keep your religion to yourself. Think of the flip side of this coin; what if this guy came to your Japanese dojo and said, "I don't believe in your dojo god, I think I should only bow once".
Just forget about it and try to get some good keiko done.

[Neil Gendzwill]

It depends on what sort of dojo you are. If the dojo is shinto, then there should be a shrine (kamiza) and at the start and end of class you turn to the shrine (kamiza-ni) and rei. But most dojo are secular and just bow to the front (shomen-ni, rei). This bow shows respect to the dojo and for the training, and has nothing to do with ancestors or previous wars or whatever. I suggest you do this one.

[Halcyon]

you may not like it, but he is still your sempai. follow his lead. it's not like you'll be in college forever. once you're out of school, you can find a dojo that's more in line with your preferences.

[Eldritch Knight]

It depends on what sort of dojo you are. If the dojo is shinto, then there should be a shrine (kamiza) and at the start and end of class you turn to the shrine (kamiza-ni) and rei. But most dojo are secular and just bow to the front (shomen-ni, rei). This bow shows respect to the dojo and for the training, and has nothing to do with ancestors or previous wars or whatever. I suggest you do this one.

I like this idea. I think my sensei's still pretty set in his ways, but I'll propose it to him.

you may not like it, but he is still your sempai. follow his lead. it's not like you'll be in college forever. once you're out of school, you can find a dojo that's more in line with your preferences.

I'd be perfectly content with this, but the fact is, he's marketing kumdo as kendo. I know that they're virtually identical in practice, but they're worlds apart in theory and spirit. It seems intrinsically wrong to leave out the bow of respect towards a higher cause (or being) when practicing a Japanese martial art.

[amatsuda]

Perfect timing that this topic came up...I was thinking of starting a new thread on this same topic...Our Dojo's experience is similar but from another perspective....In our case, the Dojo observes Shomen-ni-rei, but there are students who refuse to bow during shomen-ni-rei.

As many of you may know, many Dojos in the United States continue to practice at Buddhist Temples. Many of the Dojos rent the multi-purpose or basketball gymnasium of the Temples/Churches and have no direct connection between the Dojo and the temple. The relationship is analogous to a basketball team renting the same gym to practice.

Within the new influx of beginners there are people who refuse to bow during the shomen ni rei. It appears they have no problem with bowing towards the Sensei(gata) and Otagai ni rei as well as when entering the Dojo. However, they cite that they do not bow towards the front due to religious reasons.

When asked why they do not wish to bow, their response is that they are Christian and they feel that by bowing towards the altar, it is a form of worship. I also believe that the reason behind this comes from references to images and idols, and bowing in the Exodus Chapter (Ch.20) of the Bible.

Exodus 20:3 – Thou shall not have [worship] other Gods before me, Exodus 20:4 - Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth, and Exoduct 20:5 - Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me.

About every other class, the Sensei responsible for teaching the class will explain in detail the reasons/purpose for each of the bows the dojo does at the beginning and end of each practice. It is explained to the class that there are three terms that can be used for this rei. Shinzen ni rei – Bow towards the Buddhist Altar 2. Kamiza ni rei – Bow towards the Shinto Shrine, 3. Shomen ni rei – Bow towards the front. Even though there is a Buddhist altar right there, it is explained to them that the dojo chooses to use the secular term, ‘shomen ni rei’.

They are also told that this is the non-religious term that is used and it is not a form of worship but a sign of respect and appreciation towards the Spiritual Center or Front of the Dojo and also to those who have made it possible for us to practice Kendo today; including the Kendo masters of the past, present, and future.

When I am responsible for explaining the rei, I tell them my personal feeling or emotion that goes through my mind and spirit when I perform this bow. I tell them that when I bow, I am expressing my respect and gratitude for the existence of the Dojo, the people who have made it possible (e.g. Family, Kendo Masters, the people who built the facility,temple/dojo, etc.), and the opportunity of being able to practice Kendo itself (i.e. the physical ability to resume Kendo after an auto accident and being carried away in the ambulance, or access to a Dojo as many people do not live near a Dojo, etc.). Even though I am Buddhist, I am positive that the same feeling would apply if I went to practice at a Dojo which practices in a YMCA or a Christian Church and may quite possibly have a Cross on the Wall.

Have any of you other people out there experienced the same or similar experience(s) in your Dojo? What conclusion was reached regarding this issue?

Amatsuda

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/sjkendo

[mystic_kendoka]

my dad thought the same too (im korean) that it might be bowing to the emperor or something... but if he is teaching kendo and not kumdo, he should follow kendo-ic traditions... if he has a problem with following kendo and its etiquette and traditions, he should either quit or rename the dojo as a kumdo dojo...

[sminki]

I'm in the middle of starting a kendo club at my college, and am having a slight disagreement with the sensei (he's a a 3rd dan, Korean; I'm shodan and trained in Japan). I'm used to bowing twice prior to each class: once to the dojo-kami (the Shinto god protecting the dojo) and once to the sensei. However, my sensei has decided to omit the bow to the kami for our club, saying that it is actually to the Japanese ancestors, and thus to war criminals who commited atrocities against Korea. I know that this is a touchy subject, and thus decided to let it rest for now, but I feel that the kami is essential to having a true dojo, and that not respecting it leaves something lacking from the club. Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions to this?

Most Koreans will not have a problem with hanging the host-country flag and do a salute to the flag thing. I don't know how your sempai might feel about it if a Japanese flag would be hung, but you could mitigate by hanging all three or just the host country flag. I myself am Korean and Christian so I have problems with bowing to any sort of shrine (let alone a Japanese shrine). In the case of "shomen-ni-rei" at a dojo without a shrine, I'll oblige. As a sidenote, I'll mention that our dojo is a Japanese dojo, but don't do that "shomen-ni-rei" thing. So I don't think it's actually essential to having a true dojo and I don't think I'm the only one.

Better yet, what are you going to do about the sonkyo situation?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Have any of you other people out there experienced the same or similar experience(s) in your Dojo? What conclusion was reached regarding this issue?

Hi, Arnold. We've never had a single complaint in the 20 years or so I've been with the club. I can see where your situation may cause confusion, as there physically is an altar there, even if you explain.

This same topic came up on iaido-l recently, and the majority opinion there is that the reiho is part of kendo/iaido/koryu/whatever. To exclude it changes what we do to something else. If a prospective student can't get past it, then they can go find some other activity. I agree with that - our way or the highway. If you don't want to bow, you don't have to - the fencing club is thataway.

[LNGUYEN]

I don't know why people having problem with bowing. The Asian thing is the bowing is to show respect, not worship. You bow to the elders, to your teachers, your parents, and that is what I believe the purpose of rei in the dojos. I am a Christian but I don't have problem bowing budha, why? because, to me Budha is not God, but was still great Man once and there is nothing wrong to show respect to great Man. I will bow to any great person in the world as long as he is doing something for the humanity. Many people don't think that way and or don't have enough knowledge to see the different. I saw many Christian people who didn't show some respect in the temple and vice versa, they acted like since they are Christian, Budha is evil and Some Budhist didn't show some respect when they came into the church. Let say, if you are a Christian what do you think if Budha would be in Heaven or Hell? and If you are Budhist, what do you think if Jesus Christ would be in Nirvana or in Hell?

[JSchmidt]

"However, they cite that they do not bow towards the front due to religious reasons. "

Bah..when in Rome, etc...
I'm about as strong an atheist as one can be, but I still go follow the traditions whenever visiting a shrine, temple, church, whathaveyou.
It's not a question of beliefs, but a question of basic respect.

Jakob

[sminki]

Hi, Arnold. We've never had a single complaint in the 20 years or so I've been with the club. I can see where your situation may cause confusion, as there physically is an altar there, even if you explain.

This same topic came up on iaido-l recently, and the majority opinion there is that the reiho is part of kendo/iaido/koryu/whatever. To exclude it changes what we do to something else. If a prospective student can't get past it, then they can go find some other activity. I agree with that - our way or the highway. If you don't want to bow, you don't have to - the fencing club is thataway.

Good point. However, I do think that in certain instances (as I've said, I don't really have problems when it is "shomen" and thus secular) it is more than simple reiho or reigi as a matter of custom and respect and tradition but rather becomes reiho and reigi as a matter of religion. One could make the argument that "hey it's a respect thing" or "hey it's follow the traditions thing" but I have serious reservations against bowing to show respect to some "dojo-god" that I don't believe in and it played a part in my choosing a dojo. Showing respect to the dojo as a place of learning where one should be humble and respectful - totally fine. Additionally, I think this bowing to the dojo gods particularly sets off something in Koreans because they have been forced to pay respects at shinto shrines during Japanese occupation of Korea in early to mid 1900s.

Which brings me to a thought for Eldrich Knight. If you pose this as a matter of paying respect to the dojo and keep it as a secular matter and not bowing to the dojo-kami, your sempai may be more receptive. As I've said, the respect to dojo part is done in Korean dojos by bowing upon entering and leaving. Tell him that it is another form of paying respect to the dojo. If you insist on having a shrine and a dojo-kami, I don't think it'll ever get resolved between you and your sempai.

Then again, why should kendo be associated with a religion anyway (other than the fact that Japan historically has been Buddhist/Shinto therefore kendoka have been Buddhist/Shinto by default)? If it simply is a matter of people practicing kendo being Buddhist/Shinto as opposed to kendo having some deep roots in Buddhism/Shinto, shouldn't this change as kendo has become more global? I realize that this is like asking whether chicken or the egg is first, but hasn't kendo been developed to the extent that it has no direct ties to Buddhism/Shinto? I further realize that kendo probably was influenced by Buddhist/Shinto principles, but are things essential to kendo truly lost just because the concept of a dojo-kami is left out of practice? There are other ways to respect the dojo, the art, the principles, etc. without having to bow to a shine for some made-up god.

Any thoughts?

[James]

...but I feel that the kami is essential to having a true dojo...

As Amatsuda san says this topic seems to be coming up a lot recently - maybe armageddon is approaching?

tonight I had this enquiry:

...A couple more questions - I'm Jewish(Orthodox) and I always wear a headcovering, would that be a problem for the practice?

Also what is the significance of the josegi? If there's the slightest religious significance, I can't acknowledge it by bowing (bowing to sensei/sempai/people training in the same dojo as a form of greeting/respect etc is fine), would that also be a problem?*...

Eldritch I don't think the kami is 'essential to having a true dojo', but I understand that may have been the way you have been taught. I think it is good to acknowledge something else than the people there; the founders of the dojo and those who have been before to make it possible - hey if you are starting a dojo that might be you! Or just the dojo as an entity.

There are lots of dojos that just have a flag etc. for the dojo (rather than a country flag etc.) and do shomen ni rei (that's what we do).

Unless you have a Japanese flag or a kamidana, I think that you could come to some accomodation with your sensei. Otherwise if you are insisting on having a shinto kami being respected; the thing that is 'essential' to a dojo is that they are rarely a democracy, and he is your senior.

Hope you work it out,
James

BTW I told the Jewish guy to come and watch a practice to see a tenegui and men being put on and to decide for himself.