keiko with the opposite sex

[rfoxmich]

Just 'cause your wife is doesn't mean they all are ;-)

Depends, where you actually doing tai-atari correctly, what is the weight/size difference between you and her, and what is the experience level difference? My experience is that the women at or above my level are 10x more vicious than any male I keiko with, and if you give them an inch they will hang you with it.

[ender84567]

Just 'cause your wife is doesn't mean they all are ;-)

psh, all I have to worry about with her is when she decides its time to stomp on my toes.

[krys]

There is another thread in the TRAINING section "Have you passed through the "berserker" stage?" that refers to the Neandrathals that practice kendo

No, it refers to a certain stage in one's kendo development.

and although it generally refers to lower level men, arogant pricks exist at the high levels who ignore the perameters of the budo spirit.

Do you want to talk about something specific or just had have some spirit?

[Bokushingu]

I've been told never to take Jodan against women. I think, reading between the first lines of Dr. Honda's relevant comments, that he is of a similar mindset. Having seen my little cousin (a girl) body check strong boys into the boards in hockey, I have a natural scepticism for this condescension to girls and women. And I used to do kendo with-barring children and the elderly-an equal-opportunity-waza mentality. I have since come to see that at least here in Korea, where there are still much more traditional gender attitudes, that the women I fought with did not see me as being egalitarian, but a bully. And so I try to work on other aspects of my kendo in jigeiko against girls. Except for those rare opportunities where I've had the chance to spar against girls who came up in the public school~yonsei U athletic programs. Because those women will hand you your ass in a tai-atari sandwich, and feed you a men-uchi chaser on your way down.

I still think it's a double standard and it's bullshit; it bothers me when I see ni-san dan women getting walked over by kyu-ranked men when it's time for shiai-geiko. Because they haven't been pushed; they're too used to their partners taking it easy on them. But it's for women to challenge that system, not an outsider and a guy, like me.


P.S. It's "lose".


P.P.S. And to the OP: If your opponent, man or woman, comes to you afterwards and says you were too rough for them, you should respect that, I think.

Once you start a tournament in Jodan, you finish it in Jodan. You don't fiight your way to the finals and then decide to change back to chudan because your opponent is a woman--that would be arrogant. In addition, the division was Men's 1-2 Dan.

I also believe that powerful taitari is just a natural result of powerful footwork & using your hips. When an opponent is moving forward with equal powerful footwork & posture, it will create a very strong taitari...even if you do not want to collide hard.

I feel Honda Sensei's article is more focused on Keiko. I did not see specific information in there about competition.

PS I know it's "lose" instead of "loose"...ever heard of typo?

[Neil Gendzwill]

If it's taikai and she's entered the men's division, all bets are off in my book. But in keiko, you need to consider your partner.

[Bokushingu]

If it's taikai and she's entered the men's division, all bets are off in my book. But in keiko, you need to consider your partner.

That's why i feel being a huge guy and out weighing 95% of the guys i jigieiko with it's better to practice not relying on physical force. I think it is why women really enjoy having jigeiko with me...they get to have exposure fighting a Jodan fighter without worry of getting hurt.

Another situation comes up when i jigeiko with someone much shorter and lighter: usually an Asian Man. If they creep too close before coming in, I can't fire debanna men. I have to sacrafice & block because my shinai will wrap over their head & hit them in the back of the head. If it's a female that uses that smother tactic, then i have to either step into tsubazarei or block. In shiai, of course there's no problem; if they come in too close, i just hit them.

[IndigoGirl]

But in keiko, you need to consider your partner.

Yeah, but that's part of the problem. In jigeiko the gyus are all nice to me and try to actually do kendo. In shiai they wrestle me down and I don't have a chance to develope some tactics against that because in training they never do that.

PS: Oops, I goofed, should have replied to Neil's post.

[Bokushingu]

But in keiko, you need to consider your partner.

Yeah, but that's part of the problem. In jigeiko the gyus are all nice to me and try to actually do kendo. In shiai they wrestle me down and I don't have a chance to develope some tactics against that because in training they never do that.

PS: Oops, I goofed, should have replied to Neil's post.

i can see this being a serious problem with most people in any sport. Believe it or not, most men get defeated in shia agianst women because in their practice they have held back too much. i would have lost in my match too, if my sensei didn't walk up to me and say, "just so you know, she took out 4 guys before you!" two of the guys she beat have defeated me in the past.

I could see it really being a problem for women that want to compete in the men's division. That's why when i jigeiko with a girl i ask them before we start, "Are you planning on fighting in the men's division?" if they say yes I will use a more controlled physical form against them, allowing them experience of how to roll off and not absorb all that force & how to use that force against me. There's a girl i practice with that can tag my Kote and roll off before i can make hard contact with her. as soon as my taitari reaches her she either bounces off onpurpose or ashi-sabaki. And Ralutin can tell you she's maybe just 5 feet and only a 100 or so pounds (she's his kohai)...I couldn't knock her down if i wanted...she won't let me.

So if you plan on competing in the men's division, IndigoGirl, ask a male player that you trust to use a little more physical force against you so you can practice turning it against them.

In Socal kendo, most of the Sensei's train their female fighters how to deal with physical male players.

[b8amack]

Once you start a tournament in Jodan, you finish it in Jodan. You don't fiight your way to the finals and then decide to change back to chudan because your opponent is a woman--that would be arrogant. In addition, the division was Men's 1-2 Dan.

I said I'd been told never to take Jodan against women, not that I thought that was a correct mode of thinking. I think it's ridiculously sexist, if truth be told. "Women and children" was how the prohibition was framed, as though they were roughly the same.

I feel Honda Sensei's article is more focused on Keiko. I did not see specific information in there about competition.

You're right he is. Which furthers my point on how "taking it easy" on someone in jigeiko but then playing for keeps in shiai does that someone no real favours. I do not agree with Dr. Honda, if that was unclear, but I think I understand where he's coming from.

PS I know it's "lose" instead of "loose"...ever heard of typo?

Ah, I saw it repeated more than once. The "loose" thing is becoming an internet phenomenon, and is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. Sorry to have put you in the wrong boat.

[Halcyon]

Halcyon, thanks for the article. First thing off the bat was refrain from doing taiatari and physical waza. I'll keep that in mind for the next go around.

Actually, I think Honda sensei's advice is a bit more nuanced. The way I read it, he's basically saying that guys shouldn't rely "too much" on their physical power, i.e. try not to use one's physical advantage as a crutch to compensate for a lack of finesse.

Also, I'm sure many of us have had this experience, but a good taiatari from an experienced person feels different than someone just trying to bulldozer his way through you. The former feels solid and strong, but without that vaguely out-of-control sensation that makes you feel like you could get injured. The latter is also sometimes accompanied by the opponent jamming your toes. Ouch.

[Neil Gendzwill]

In keiko, you need to consider your goals. Are you this persons senior? If not, then her kendo education is not your responsibility. So consider what you are accomplishing with the taiatari. If the goal is to knock her off balance or back in order to get a point, that's fine but basically once you know you can do that with a lighter person, there's no point in practicing it. Practice that on someone with a stronger physical kamae. If the purpose is your own kendo development, why not play to her strengths in keiko and see if you can beat that, rather than playing into her weaknesses?

As an example, I routinely play a gentleman who is quite a bit older and smaller than I am. I can knock him back or over if I want, or pick off his kote. Hitting his men is really hard though, because he has a nice centre and good spirit. So that's what I try to do. I'm less successful but it's keiko - we're not trying to win, we're trying to improve. I know when I start hitting his kote a lot that I'm actually losing, because I'm getting frustrated with my goal.

[Karaken]

I think this is refering to respect. Is it not the attitude of budo - all budo?

I beg to differ. It includes respect but it doesn't stop there. In fact, in my book, there are many who I can't wait to get back to have another geiko and there are people I am not anxious to face if I can help. This is not because of their rank or skills nor because I always win or lose, it's due to their approach to Kendo. Bully's are the ones to be avoided (or should be taught to correct) and it should be differentiated from a Strong Kendo. You need to judge closely where the line is drawn and try not to cross it especially if it's ji-geiko even though I'd advocate this approach to shiai as well.

[CH0ZEN]

i can see this being a serious problem with most people in any sport. Believe it or not, most men get defeated in shia agianst women because in their practice they have held back too much. i would have lost in my match too, if my sensei didn't walk up to me and say, "just so you know, she took out 4 guys before you!" two of the guys she beat have defeated me in the past.

Bokushingu, personally, I agree with how you handled the situation especially since she voluntarily entered the men's division. If you held back or treated her any differently from the kenshi you defeated prior to making it to the finals, you may have lost to her, and her victory would have been a hollow one since she didn't beat you at your best (e.g. you would have almost cheated her out of a true victory by holding back).

[Bokushingu]

Ah, I saw it repeated more than once. The "loose" thing is becoming an internet phenomenon, and is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. Sorry to have put you in the wrong boat

no problem; i'm a very bad typer and too lazy to edit before clicking the post button. In my last post, i misspelled a few words. lol ^_^

Bokushingu, personally, I agree with how you handled the situation especially since she voluntarily entered the men's division. If you held back or treated her any differently from the kenshi you defeated prior to making it to the finals, you may have lost to her, and her victory would have been a hollow one since she didn't beat you at your best (e.g. you would have almost cheated her out of a true victory by holding back).

it was difficult & she was crying afterwards. But I think she was ok & knew i had no intentions of using force to win...she later added me as a friend on face book. 5 months later, against a male opponent, I pulled a groin muscle relying on too much force.

I like Neil's way of applying your weaker point to their strongest aspect. It's the Way Muhamed Ali use to train when he was in his Prime.

[Kenzan]

Little known Kendo rule fact:
Bonus points awarded if you make Bokushingu cry.