Guys, doh has always been hard for me. I feel like it's simple a difficult waza. The last couple years I've gotten to where my doh in kihon against a cooperating opponent is pretty good but I'll be darned if I can pull it off in jigeiko.
If you're good at doh or like doh, what are some considerations to pulling it off? Apologies if this is a redundant thread.
Charlie Kondek, EMU Kendo
Box of tea?
Pavlov's conditioned response. Men, men, doh. You cannot hit doh unless they believe you are hitting their men. This is simplest way I teach my students. Get them blocking the men.
After that you find ways to make them break their kamae and react to a threat to the men.
Then there is the efficiency of your motion.
I'm neither particularly good at doh, but I do believe in having a well-stocked quiver of waza from which to draw, so I try to attempt doh at least once with every jigeiko opponent.
Quite honestly, I can't seem to pull off a clean nuki-doh unless the opponent is a relative newbie, so I use kaeshi-doh. The main point to keep in mind for kaeshi-doh is to perform the kaeshi waaaaay out in front of you, rather than doing it close to your men. Two primary reasons for this.
1. If you kaeshi too close to your own men, then there's a chance that you'll get hit, or, in a shiai situation, you might lose the point because it might LOOK like you got hit even if you didn't (remember the infamous phantom men-uchi scored by Miyazaki against Eiga's kaeshi-doh?).
2. If you're up against an opponent with any amount of speed, then by the time you hit doh after kaeshi, the opponent has moved significantly closer, making their migi-doh practically unavailable as a target.
Too many people just stand there and try to kaeshi while letting the opponent come to them. I try to kaeshi way out ahead of me, and I also move forward myself. This is the only way kaeshi-doh works for me so far.
Paul
Thanks, guys. I'll try this for sure. I've certainly tried what Curtis-sensei suggested but I must be telegraphing myself like hell because my opponents always see it coming and knock it down.
Men nuki doh? Forget it, not me.
Charlie Kondek, EMU Kendo
Box of tea?
Of course make them think you're hitting men so don't step offline early if you are taller than them. The main thing that I find to be successful is keeping shinai on shinai contact for as long as possible as you are extending towards their men before you go around aite's shinai. You can even play with shinai pressure on their shinai as you go up in various directions to make it easier for going around, much the same as you can pressure through to "automatically open" the opponents kote via shinai on shinai pressure.
I remember some guy asking Liang Baiping what the philosphy of Taiji was. Baiping looked at him and said, "The philosophy of Taiji is to crash through to their center and kill them".
We drill our club till they are numb to never ever block..... result.... its all but impossible to practice dou in gigeiko.... the odd time someone will block or we can force them to move then we can try a dou.
Sure we can try a kaeshi dou, but if we can't practice a decent dou in the first place kaeshi dou is out the window....
The result is we are all crap at dou... but the other side is we never block and therefore its very difficult (if not impossible... I've never seen it anyway in a taikai) to score dou on us....
We are douless
Kendo Na h-Eireann.
Irish Kendo Federation
Stop By, Say Hi
Cork Budokai-Martial Art cork
One day without keiko, your body knows.
Two days, your opponent knows.
Three days, the audience knows.
The gauntlet has been thrown down. Alright you guys, go get them.Originally Posted by bobdonny
We drill our club till they are numb to never ever block..... result.... its all but impossible to practice dou in gigeiko.... the odd time someone will block or we can force them to move then we can try a dou.
Sure we can try a kaeshi dou, but if we can't practice a decent dou in the first place kaeshi dou is out the window....
The result is we are all crap at dou... but the other side is we never block and therefore its very difficult (if not impossible... I've never seen it anyway in a taikai) to score dou on us....
We are douless
Why do you need them to block? They do attack men occasionally, don't they?
Neil Gendzwill
Saskatoon Kendo Club
Right, bob! I was thinking "nuki doh." The best time for doh is when the other guy is attacking men.
At least so I've heard. Don't ask me to demonstrate, heh. Sensei make this look so EASY!
Charlie Kondek, EMU Kendo
Box of tea?
Hi Charlie
The most common problem I see when kendokas attempt nuki doh is that they tend to over swing. If the aite is constantly blocking your attempts, it's because they recognize your swing for nuki doh...in other words, your nuki doh shouldn't be distinctive.
I hate to sound like a broken record....I apologize to everyone in advance. When you execute a strike for men kote and doh, your mechanics needs to be consistent for all 3, big and small. You need to raise and lower the shinai the same way, straight up and down. So when I execute nuki doh, the aite can't tell the difference if I'm striking his men or doh. This is also true for migi doh. Men nuki doh will be very difficult to execute if your mechanics aren't correct.
Another important factor is how you fumikomi. What I see sometimes is kendokas contorting their bodies which ruins their posture. if you fumikomi correctly, this won't happen. You really need to have a good understanding of your issoku maai to execute nuki doh.
So this is how I execute a nuki doh and men nuki doh from issoku
1) I raise the shinai/kensen from my shoulders about 3 or 4" above the aites men. Again, my hands and elbows don't move as I do this. If you're taught to drive the shinai, drive the kensen about 3 to4" above the aites men.
2) As I'm raising the shinai, I simultaneously fumikomi from the hips at a 45 degree angle which in turn naturally forces my shinai to become slightly off center to my left. As I swing the shinai down, i turn my left hand/wrist 45 degrees and cut straight down. I use my left hand and shoulders simultaneously as I cut down...I'm guessing this is kind of confusing.......since my body is turned at a 45 degree angle and my shinai is slightly off center to my left, when you turn your hand/wrist at 45 degree angle, your hands, arms and shinai naturally moves at 45 degrees as you strike the doh and completing the cut as your hands return back to center.
I'm only 5'9" tall. when I execute a nuki doh against shorter kendokas, i adjust my maai slightly farther, which means i need to fumikomi farther. I do this to maintain my posture by lowering my body. I also turn my wrist a little more than 45 degrees and cut a little lower.
What i recommend Charlie is that you learn migi doh first. The only difference between nuki and migi doh is the fumikomi. You just fumikomi slightly towards the left. After you practice this a million times in kihon, you'll have a better understanding.
Happy thanksgiving my friend.
We teach our beginners doh going through to the left, but still hitting on their left (opponent's right). Then when we go to the normal doh, we just change where the right foot lands, everything else stays the same. This is confusing to some outsiders who see this and think we're teaching them wrong.
As far as nuki-doh - really it is debana-doh, you need to get that in your head. The timing is the same - you need to be going when your opponent is at the very start of his attack, not thinking you will be dodging the incoming men. At speed, you need to learn how to hit strong and correct with mostly wrist, because if you raise your hands up high for kihon-doh, you will be too late.
Neil Gendzwill
Saskatoon Kendo Club
I think we may have a slight difference in terminology here. What's your definition of nuki-doh vs. migi-doh?
In the usage familiar to me, migi-doh is the target area. Nuki-doh is men-nuki-doh, i.e. opponent tries to hit your men, you evade and hit opponent's doh. It can be either men-nuki-migi-doh or men-nuki-hidari-doh.
Paul
Curtis...ta
Neil + Charlie... I was just about to say that neil...I had it explained to me a while back that nuki dou is an oxymoron... there really only exists debanna dou. And if you think along those lines, personally I'd be far more likely to take a debanna kote as they adjust their weight on their foot or a debanna men as their body is coming forward. If I was to take a debanna dou I would miss these two opportuinities in that order and be making contact much later when they are coming towards me and they have raised their shinai.
I should have said... Jodan and nito are a different kettle of fish.... debanna dou is a game on there!!
Kendo Na h-Eireann.
Irish Kendo Federation
Stop By, Say Hi
Cork Budokai-Martial Art cork
One day without keiko, your body knows.
Two days, your opponent knows.
Three days, the audience knows.
We have one sensei who teaches this way. It revolutionized my doh, which still sucks, but not nearly as bad as it did before I started practicing that way.
Hi Neil sensei
There's a lot of truth and wisdom to this. I think Curtis sensei hit the nail on the head. Believe it or not, I can execute a shikake nuki doh and I do it exactly how I *tried* to describe it. My apologies for not articulating it better. I think we both know it's better to show and tell.
My sensei said exactly what Curtis sensei said...the key to executing nuki/migi doh (shikage waza) is to make the aite think you're executing a men. When I execute nuki doh...I try to catch the aite flat footed. If I'm successful at doing this, the aites natural response will be to lift his shinai to block exposing his doh just enough giving me the chance to nuki/migi doh. If i remember correctly....I think this falls in the category of seme by striking. I could be wrong. No surprise there.
I execute debena nuki doh the exact same way except for the difference in timing.
@halcyon migi doh to me is hitting the aites right side.
Happy Thanksgiving guys!!!
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