Defenses against forms of iaido.

[dillon]

Akemashite omedetogozaimasu!

I sympathize with Jonathan feeling underwhelmed by the "not being there" answer. And I did felt that some of the responses to op and Jonathan could have been better qualified.

I had asked a question a little while back about what higher level practitioners believe they were achieving through practicing iaido and thought a bit about this question. On my shodan iai exam one of the questions was why I started practicing iaido. Among the reasons I submitted was that through practice I hope to have a better awareness of my body, sword and surroundings. I think "not being there" is an aspect of awareness of surrounding and as satsurama pointed out, one tries to develop a sense for what is about to happen. Iaido calls itself iaido and not battodo because it is about having that degree of mental awareness (that's my understanding at least, perhaps the batto people would take exception to that). As for what happens if you can't get away in a hypothetical situation where both are armed with katana, then I think Wraith's answer about it coming down to the better skilled swordsman (and perhaps some luck) answers the question for me. In kendo a lot is about aspects of swordsmanship beyond just the techniques.

[turboyoshi]

Muto dori can be somewhat described as defending oneself barehanded against a katana. I'm not sure I'd call it "silly" though. Anyway.

Yep, I'd definitely call it silly or maybe delusional, at the very least, impractical.

Now, if a sensei teaches mutodori with the qualifier that an unarmed man facing a swordsman will most likely die, at least you can die trying, then fine, at least he's not promoting pure fantasy.
Unfortunately, most sensei in commercial dojos are just not that honest and that is why I will continue to defend my opinion that such oddball training methods are worthless, silly, etc. They are primarily promoted by people who are just looking for a new hook with which to make a buck.

I don't get attacked with bokken very often on the street, but its amazing how frequently it happens in the dojo. If my block for example isn't practical, in the sense of being useful (a practical technique as opposed to an impractical one) I'm in for a bad time.

If such things are frequent occurrences in your dojo, I think you are wasting your time there. But hey, it's your time and your money, do what you want. Just stop trying to convince me that it's anything other than a waste.

[Jonathan]

Thanks Dillon. I don't really have too much to add there.

Hi Turboyoshi!

In all likelihood, either of two swordsmen facing each other could die, if not both. They can be very dangerous things!
Is it always going to be the one with the bigger sword who wins? Always? Didn't work out so hot for Sasaki Kojiro, but I hear they named an island after him so that's almost as good.
If I said that a sword loses every time to a naginata, that a katana wielding opponent could never be bested by someone with a wakizashi or a tanto or a rock, I bet someone here could correct me (hey wasn't there a Conlan paper that said guys with rocks killed a lot of people? Did they only beat fellow rock holders?). Taking that conceptual progression just one more step is oddball training, worthless, silly, etc.? OK....

For a moment I considered rephrasing your last couple sentences back at you, but there's no point and it wouldn't be very nice. Best wishes to you and your dojo. Even if you don't do the same things I do or for the same reasons, I bet you get a lot of your time there and it is important to you. Happy New Year.

[Maro]

Iaido calls itself iaido and not battodo because it is about having that degree of mental awareness (that's my understanding at least, perhaps the batto people would take exception to that). .

Please expound on this one - it's a cracker.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Just stop trying to convince me that it's anything other than a waste.

I think you should take the time to read, if not that whole e-budo thread, then at least the post from Keith Larman that I pointed out. You may find it interesting.

[Durandal]

Iaido calls itself iaido and not battodo because it is about having that degree of mental awareness (that's my understanding at least, perhaps the batto people would take exception to that).

You would be surprised by all the names given to iai during centuries

[dillon]

Please expound on this one - it's a cracker.

Ok, I opened a tin of worms. It wasn't my intention to do so. What I mean is that iaido/jutsu doesn't call itself battodo/jutsu is because it wants to convey that it is about something transcendental whereas the term batto linguistically carries less of that implication. I do not know if battodo practitioners in fact exclude these transcendental aspects or not and I suspect the distinction between batto and iai is a matter of degree rather than kind or simply a choice of terms.

Sorry if I offended anyone in this regards. Just trying to point out that the word "iai" attempts to imply something more than whipping your blade out and cutting someone down.

[Kokoro777]

Is it always going to be the one with the bigger sword who wins?

You've slightly changed the goal posts there Jonathan, since being unarmed against a swordsman wielding a razor sharp sword that need only be dragged across you body in any old way to cause serious injury let alone swung with some force and making contact with you, is very different from two people in conflict with different (sizes) of weapon. The thing is, if you try and cut someone and they dodge the cut (as in the initial parts of the Wado To-dori kata) its takes very little effort to simply change the angle of the blade and swipe at you enemy so make a minor cut to slow them down. All too often we see attackers in these scenario make their cut and then freeze while the defender dances around them delivering all sorts of blows and slapping them with a large fish. It isn't going to work and this is why a sword against an unarmed person is exponentially different to someone with a bigger sword/spear/naginata etc. Why don't you and a friend take two bokuto (probably a foam one or something) and smearing the 'cutting edges' in dry wipe marker or something similarly as removable. Then just go for it at each other (definitely foam bokuto) and after 30 seconds see where you have touched each other with with the cutting edge. Repeat unarmed, with a foam spear, foam naginata etc.

I practice Iaido as an art rather than an effective form of combat-its a simple as that. In real combat I'd rather have a sword over being unarmed, I'd rather have a long (titanium shafted) spear/naginata over a sword or a automatic rifle over any of them!

[dillon]

Sorry for double post.

Perhaps another way to look at this question is to apply the question to nuclear arms.

One might ask "what's the best defense against nuclear weapons?"

The answer might be:

"don't launch your own" (if you have some)

"don't piss off any nation that does have them" (if you don't have any... and even if you do)

"get a missile defense shield system if you are really that worried and hope for the best" (if you think you live next to a credible threat hell bent on nuking you)

The first two answers are closer to formulating an overall strategy while the last answer opens up questions of tactics and specific technological devices.

(ok go ahead and rip me apart for this... it's inevitable)

[babayaga]

Much of this conversation seems to be missing the point; getting hung up on semantics.

Combat and art are not mutually exclusive.

What one is training in iai is not necessarily what one seems to be training. The omote -- what is seen on the outside -- is only the tip of a very large iceberg.

I would not expect a beginner to understand this, so the OP's question was perfectly reasonable.

Cheers,
Beth

[Kokoro777]

On my shodan iai exam one of the questions was why I started practicing iaido.

What a great question. We get really dull ones here in the UK: 'Draw a layout of your dojo showing all emergency exits', 'What are the English translations of the name of the 12 Seiteigata' etc. I suppose they are easier to mark and there are definite right and wrong answers. For the last question, one clever-clogs who used to train in my dojo argued in his written paper, that Shihogiri was misnamed since it doesn't contain four cuts. He failed shodan.

[Kokoro777]

Much of this conversation seems to be missing the point; getting hung up on semantics.

Virtually all arguments revolve around semantics. Besides, you shouldn't be so dismissive of semantics.

Combat and art are not mutually exclusive.

That may be the case but we'll never know since combat of this sort is never put to the test anymore.

What one is training in iai is not necessarily what one seems to be training. The omote -- what is seen on the outside -- is only the tip of a very large iceberg.

That's slightly unhelpful, Beth because by definition we beginners can't see it! Its a bit 'Emperors New Clothes'! Can you give us mere mortals an example to illustrate your point?

I would not expect a beginner to understand this, so the OP's question was perfectly reasonable.

We're all beginners Beth, maybe some are more 'beginnerish' than others....?

[Peter West]

I was thinking about defences against an oncoming car, and came to the conclusion that I cannot trust my skills enough or to hope that he is a bad enough driver that he will miss me. Best thing is to know a car is coming and not step in the road.

[pgsmith]

Best thing is to know a car is coming and not step in the road.

What? You mean to tell me that you don't train to jump onto the bonnet and then leap over the speeding car? That seems to me that it would be the equivalent of muto dori.

[turboyoshi]

I think you should take the time to read, if not that whole e-budo thread, then at least the post from Keith Larman that I pointed out. You may find it interesting.

I did read part of the thread, and especially, Keith Larman's post. His conclusions: that barehanded defenses against a sword are unlikely to succeed, that you can learn things about timing and distance and that whatever people practice, just to practice well, are all things I can agree with. However, You can learn about distance and timing from less ridiculous training methods. The fact that there are a few rare individuals that can actually make it work doesn't validate anything. Someone with enough skill could probably turn gymnastics into a martial art or turn a soda straw into a weapon.
This still puts mutodori in a similar category as haidong gumdo or backyard ninjery though, doesn't it? I think it's still fair to point that out, and in fact, the responsible thing to do so that people, such as forum lurkers, aren't misled by unscrupulous sensei. I don't see a reason to withhold my opinion just because the people who want to practice such things won't like it.