How to make Jodan not so obvious.

[John Smith]

I've been studying Jodan for a few months and I am in a weird stage where I can't really do Chudan or Jodan well. I can't really say I am in a slump, because I am not in a level where I can truly say I am good enough to have a period when I am significantly bad.

so my conclusion is that I am just bad.

Here's my problem. My form is good; when I strike men, I always keep a good kensen. But my strikes and timings are predictable as heck. I try watching and dissecting Shodai's matches, but I can't really see what I can learn from him other than thinking, "I am a piece of shit compare to him."

Should I keep something in my mind when I am doing Jodan?

[JSchmidt]

How would you deal with the same issue in chudan?.

[DigitalDowntown]

I've been practicing jodan for just 8 or 9 months myself. For the first several months, I really struggled with 'thinking' too much about what to do while in jodan; thinking about how to react, strategy, form, etc. Practice (of course) and forcing myself to apply seme from jodan helped clear that out a little for me. At this point I'm just trying to react more naturally from jodan, which often means dropping into chudan depending on the situation.
ie. If aite and I engage from toumaai, I might start jodan. If we later find ourselves coming out of tsubazeriai, I might go into chudan until the maai allows for a safe kamae change, etc.

Have you spent any time studying YOUR jodan kamae? We also have floor to ceiling mirrors at my dojo so I take time each practice to see how my jodan looks. Can I spot an obvious 'tell' when striking? Do I look confident or am I cringing? You can learn a lot from a mirror.

[JSchmidt]

If we later find ourselves coming out of tsubazeriai, I might go into chudan until the maai allows for a safe kamae change, etc.

At least for ji-geiko, I try to do almost the opposite; Go into jodan as early as possible, even if the distance is not safe, in order to practice gaining control and intimidating the opponent. It occasionally fails miserably, but when you do make them take that covering step back, you know that you are doing something right.

[DigitalDowntown]

At least for ji-geiko, I try to do almost the opposite; Go into jodan as early as possible, even if the distance is not safe, in order to practice gaining control and intimidating the opponent. It occasionally fails miserably, but when you do make them take that covering step back, you know that you are doing something right.

Ahh, a very interesting idea! Again, "force myself to seme" and maintain that attacking mindset.

[b8amack]

I've been studying Jodan for a few months and I am in a weird stage where I can't really do Chudan or Jodan well. I can't really say I am in a slump, because I am not in a level where I can truly say I am good enough to have a period when I am significantly bad.

so my conclusion is that I am just bad.

Here's my problem. My form is good; when I strike men, I always keep a good kensen. But my strikes and timings are predictable as heck. I try watching and dissecting Shodai's matches, but I can't really see what I can learn from him other than thinking, "I am a piece of shit compare to him."

Should I keep something in my mind when I am doing Jodan?

The usual proviso about varying mileage... as soon as they're in range, attack. As soon as you see they are going to attack, attack first! (That only sounds like a paradox.) Even though you lose and lose. Eventually, you won't lose. Or at least it won't be a given. I wouldn't worry so much about being predictable, as being respected. They need to respect your attack and respect your maai.

[D'Artagnan]

I don't know much about Jodan, but my Sensei is a former Jodan player, and he once told me that one of the most important points in Jodan - as with Chudan - is that you move your feet and body first - and your hands last. Moving the hands too soon is one of the biggest give-aways in Kendo in general, not just for Jodan...

[rfoxmich]

Maybe you'll need a deeper understanding of the principles of kendo to improve Jodan see e.g.:
http://kenshi247.net/blog/2011/11/09/kakashi-jodan/

for Nakayama Hakudo's take on Jodan and what's needed to practice it well.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Ahh, a very interesting idea! Again, "force myself to seme" and maintain that attacking mindset.

When I first learned, my sensei's advice was just to keep moving forward and not even worry that much about hitting myself. Just push in, move forward, take my lumps and get an understanding of what my opponents would do and what the maai is like. As I started to attack more, I just kept that very forward feeling. I think that big pressure on aite is really what makes jodan work, and if you are just relying on technical stuff you've got nothing.

[Toecutter]

Maybe you'll need a deeper understanding of the principles of kendo to improve Jodan see e.g.:
http://kenshi247.net/blog/2011/11/09/kakashi-jodan/

for Nakayama Hakudo's take on Jodan and what's needed to practice it well.

Just replying for the sake of debate, but if that outlook on jodan were true who would ever do it? Only rokudan and above?

[turboyoshi]

Just replying for the sake of debate, but if that outlook on jodan were true who would ever do it? Only rokudan and above?

Also replying for the sake of debate: if people wait until their skills are so developed, you might see less people doing jodan, but the ones who do it may show you more elegant and beautiful jodan kendo.

I'm a little surprised no one has commented on this:

I've been studying Jodan for a few months and I am in a weird stage where I can't really do Chudan or Jodan well.

If you can't do chudan well, do you really have the skills to do effective jodan? What advice can people really give you that won't require you to already have a good foundation?

Now speaking for myself, I don't believe skill at chudan is necessary to do jodan, but I do think it will take you a lot longer to develop strong jodan because you can't skip steps. That is, you'll still need to learn the skills you would have developed during your time in chudan. Like learning to ride a bike with training wheels, and then without, if you go straight to trying to ride the bike without training wheels, you'll need to develop the same sense of balance and coordination needed to ride the bike.

[b8amack]

Just replying for the sake of debate, but if that outlook on jodan were true who would ever do it? Only rokudan and above?

He was a chudan kenshi.

[b8amack]

Also replying for the sake of debate: if people wait until their skills are so developed, you might see less people doing jodan, but the ones who do it may show you more elegant and beautiful jodan kendo.

I'm a little surprised no one has commented on this:


If you can't do chudan well, do you really have the skills to do effective jodan? What advice can people really give you that won't require you to already have a good foundation?

Now speaking for myself, I don't believe skill at chudan is necessary to do jodan, but I do think it will take you a lot longer to develop strong jodan because you can't skip steps. That is, you'll still need to learn the skills you would have developed during your time in chudan. Like learning to ride a bike with training wheels, and then without, if you go straight to trying to ride the bike without training wheels, you'll need to develop the same sense of balance and coordination needed to ride the bike.

I took the OP to mean his troubles with jodan has affected his chudan, or perhaps merely made him understand his actual chudan level better.

[b8amack]

Also replying for the sake of debate: if people wait until their skills are so developed, you might see less people doing jodan, but the ones who do it may show you more elegant and beautiful jodan kendo.

Just to be clear, Shodai would still not have been allowed to even attempt jodan, under the above maxim. Much less gain the skill he has with it.

[Toecutter]

He was a chudan kenshi.

You lost me on that. The article was saying that only people with a good understanding of chudan (30-40 years) should attempt jodan, or do you mean the author of the article was bias?