kote-suriage-men -- ura vs. omote

[Halcyon]

A visiting sensei gave me an interesting pointer a while ago about kote-suriage-men, and I wanted to see what the forums members thought about it. I happened to be leading kihon practice that day and we did a few rounds of kote-suriage-men -- with suriage on both the ura and omote sides.

My default is to do suriage on the ura side. But a few years back, my sensei noted that you can do suriage on the omote side as well. The primary advantage of this is that you can switch from kote-suriage-men to men-suriage-men pretty seamlessly depending on which target your opponent goes for. Kind of a revelation at the time.

However, the visiting sensei noted that the mechanics of kote-suriage-men with suriage on the omote side doesn't work very well for a couple of reasons. 1. To suriage on the omote side, you lose center with your kensen. For many people, it ends up turning into kote-kaeshi-men. 2. The opponent's shinai is more likely to get in the way as you try to hit men. I hadn't quite thought about this until he mentioned it, and indeed, I find doing suriage on the ura side to be more natural, but it wasn't until he mentioned it that I realized why.

How were you taught how to do kote-suriage-men? Does kote-suriage-men on the omote side even exist as a waza or should it rather be identified as kote-kaeshi-men?

[DCPan]

How were you taught how to do kote-suriage-men? Does kote-suriage-men on the omote side even exist as a waza or should it rather be identified as kote-kaeshi-men?

Ironically, it was a sensei that moved from NYC to the Pacific Northwest that taught me Kote-Suriage-Men-Omote.

I think it is distinct from kote-kaeshi-men because you stay on the same side of the opponent's shinai for the deflection and the strike and exit opponent's left.

If it was a kote-kaeshi-men, you'd strike on the other side of the opponent's shinai and exit opponent's right wouldn't you? Not to mention there'd be a maki-like motion similar to kata #4.

For me, the footwork has a similar feel to nuki-doh. If you don't move offline, you get stuck.

I actually find Kote-Suriage-Men-Omote to be more effective against people that do diagonal kote. If you take seigan or the natural kamae or the triangle, you're practically set up to do it already anyhow. Or, enter in hiraki-chudan as part of your seme.

One more note: for me, this technique really clicked with what Miyahara sensei was saying in that video in youtube about being able to deflect kote with just te-no-uchi. If the opponent is fast and sharp, the amount of movement from te-no-uchi is sufficient to disrupt the opponent's kote, esp in a kote-men strike.

That's my experience with it anyway....

[J.S]

Do you have a link to that youtube-video?

[Neil Gendzwill]

If the aite is attacking kote by moving underneath, it is pretty tough to catch it on the omote side. Most go overtop though, so you can use either way. Ura is risky because if you miss, then you lose kote. Omote gets you a little off centre but it is much easier to block the incoming kote. If he knows you like that waza though, he is likely to come around even further and attack more diagonally, so you can still lose kote using the omote version.

[DCPan]

Hmm...it might be in this one.

http://youtu.be/yufA8GVmmRo

I'll look later at home if it isn't this one.

[Charlie]

Ura for me, definitely. I'll have to experiment with what you're describing but my basic understanding was the opponent is moving to my right, exposing the ura side of the shinai, therefore that's the best place to deflect.

[MikeW]

I have always been taught (and use) both and always told you shouldn't step back (as in nuki waza) but should immediately hit men.

[D'Artagnan]

I rarely use Kote-suriage-men, in 'real' situations, as there are other Waza vs. Kote that I'm better at.

However, when I do use it, I prefer the Omote side, as 1) it provides more defense to the Kote and 2) I have to move the Shinai less to get adequate power in the Men strike, so I can make a quicker, sharper strike.

However, I don't step-off line like David mentioned, but like he said, it's all about Te-no-uchi. I don't move the Shinai in a big way, but I kick the wrists in on the impact of the opponent's Shinai, to send them off line, and give me a way in. This is the sort of Te-no-uchi that is improved by receiving Kirikaeshi.

Another reaosn I find it easier than Ura, is because most people bring the Shinai to their left after striking Kote, which means they are voluntarily taking the Shinai in the same direction as my deflection, making life a whole lot easier.

In any case, this waza is definately Suriage-Men, as I lift the Shinai upwards (albeit slightly) and firmly brush the Shinai away - hence Suri-age. As David said, Kote-Kaeshi-Men usually involves striking on the opposite side - though this isn't what qualifiers it as Keashi-Waza. According to most interpretations Kaeshi-waza needs to have an overturning of the wrists (手首を返す), regadless of which side of the opponent's Shinai the strike is made. Though some people use the term 'Keashi' to refer to all Oji-waza, as the more common use of the kanji simply means to 'return'...

[DCPan]

Another reaosn I find it easier than Ura, is because most people bring the Shinai to their left after striking Kote, which means they are voluntarily taking the Shinai in the same direction as my deflection, making life a whole lot easier.

In any case, this waza is definately Suriage-Men, as I lift the Shinai upwards (albeit slightly) and firmly brush the Shinai away - hence Suri-age. As David said, Kote-Kaeshi-Men usually involves striking on the opposite side - though this isn't what qualifiers it as Keashi-Waza. According to most interpretations Kaeshi-waza needs to have an overturning of the wrists (手首を返す), regadless of which side of the opponent's Shinai the strike is made. Though some people use the term 'Keashi' to refer to all Oji-waza, as the more common use of the kanji simply means to 'return'...

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the bit of overturning of the wrists...that makes sense.

I'm not visualizing how you are deflecting the opponent's shinai to their left to compliment the hiki-age after the kote though. I was under the impression that in suriage ura, you deflect to their left, but in suriage omote, you deflect to their right? So, if you do deflect on the omote side to their left, I can't visualize how you would do it without overturning of the wrists?

Thanks!

[D'Artagnan]

I'm not visualizing how you are deflecting the opponent's shinai to their left to compliment the hiki-age after the kote though. I was under the impression that in suriage ura, you deflect to their left, but in suriage omote, you deflect to their right? So, if you do deflect on the omote side to their left, I can't visualize how you would do it without overturning of the wrists?

Thanks!

Yeah I got mixed up, sorry about that. They pull the Shinai in the opposite direction to my deflection - so I have to really snap the te-no-uchi to get it to work... Naturally it works better on people who are physically weaker than I am... Like I said, I can do it fine when practicing, but when my @$$ is on the line then I almost never use it...

Sorry for confusing things there!

I do it like this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzs59F8ft_s

Full speed here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmmUN8h_V8w

[Neil Gendzwill]

Though some people use the term 'Keashi' to refer to all Oji-waza, as the more common use of the kanji simply means to 'return'...

In judo, counter-attacks in general are kaeshi-waza, not oji-waza. But then again they say mate instead of yame so clearly they are wrong...

[Charlie]

Ah, makes sense. That video is suuuper helpful, Andy.

[DCPan]

This video is kind of cool....

http://youtu.be/HAgvS2iBl7E

[Halcyon]

This video is kind of cool....

http://youtu.be/HAgvS2iBl7E

Nice find. That's a nice series of waza videos.