menkyo kaiden and hachi-dan

[lsrfbt]

I have a couple of questions which I've tried to find the answer to but can't find out so I am hoping that someone can help me.

I think I understand that if you have a menkyo kaiden you have an effective 'licence to teach' since you know all the kata of a particular koryu, my question is that if you are studying iai as I am, under the ZNKR (through FIK) would I ever reach a level of koryu knowledge equivalent to menkyo kaiden and would that be hachi-dan?

Or since ZNKR uses seitei as its grading criteria and kenkyo kaiden relates to koryu would you hypothetically receive it as a separate 'qualification' (for want of a better word) from your sensei when you reached that level of knowledge whether that was hachi-dan or not?

Thanks for any responses!

[chidokan]

For a japanese student (living in Japan) and learning directly from the senior sensei, if he is good it will take him 12 years minimum to reach the menkyo status. I cannot see a traditional ryu like mine ever giving out such a thing to a foreigner like myself... they can be a bit too conservative sometimes. I guess at some point if a westerner lives there a LONG time he may finally qualify, but I am not convinced on this.

It is not really related to any association grade, as it has other items that are at the head teachers discretion involved. For example, your position in the community, the state of your marriage and perhaps how well your children have been brought up all come into play, not just your technical ability. The last ZNIR leader happened to have menkyo kaiden for MJER, but this was more coincidental than deliberate, although may have been instrumental in choosing him as head of that group.

I know several menkyo holders, all of whom have different grades, but all are above 7 dan in their relevant groups (ZNKR, ZNIR etc). Whether that is also coincidental or not, is not really the point, but understanding some of the details behind it I can see how it sort of lines up....

They can also vary from person to person. I have seen a few of the scrolls now, and they all list as a minimum the waza that person knows, along with name of teacher and pupil. They are also supposed to be kept quiet, so in theory you are not supposed to know who has one until that person passes away. they seem more of an open secret in the group however...

Note this licence also states "now you understand the basics, go and practise as hard as you can"....

[lsrfbt]

Thats interesting thank you, so in a related sense NOT having menkyo doesn't mean that you don't at least have a working knowledge of all the waza?

[dillon]

I do not belong to a koryuha that uses the menkyo system but from what I am aware of, menkyo-kaiden is generally the culmination of a "mokuroku" (lit. catalog). Depending on the ryuha there are usually a handful of stages on this mokuroku prior to mekyo-kaiden (including "mokuroku", "sho-mokuroku" and "menkyo" inter-alia). Traditionally this may take the form literally of a makimono (scroll) on which more paper and writing is added to the end as the student progresses. Different ryuha will have different policies about who can and cannot teach and under what circumstances. So it is not always the case that only a menkyo-kaiden can teach at least under some sort of controlled circumstance. In some cases, even menkyo-kaiden cannot teach!

The menkyo/mokuroku system was devised to propagate koryu arts under different circumstances and motivation than the kyu-dan system was devised for. There are some koryu which have slightly adapted to modern terminology as "dan" are used in Jigen-ryu for example (though I believe this is largely just a change in vocabulary).

[Peter West]

Thats interesting thank you, so in a related sense NOT having menkyo doesn't mean that you don't at least have a working knowledge of all the waza?

Your definition of "working knowledge" will change in time, it certainly isn't the same as mine, and people with menkyo will probably still talk of the gaps in the knowledge, their lack of understanding of a point here and there.

However, the answers you have so far are good. The problem is it is a complex system, or number of systems that don't necessarily have the same standards. In the ZNKR/IKF we have the kyu/dan system which now culminates in hachidan. When you have hachidan you certainly have a "working knowledge" of Seitei and must have passed an embu examination in your koryu too. But whether a godan or sandan has a working knowledge of their kata is a matter of degree, interpretation, and it is in fact all relative.

Also the ZNKR has a Shogo system of Renshi, kyoshi, Hanshi which are, for Seitei iaido, equivalent to a Menkyo system in some ways, though that will depend which Ryu's menkyo system you are comparing it with. The minimum requirements are
Renshi 6 dan + 12 months
Kyoshi 7 Dan + 2 years
Hanshi 8 Dan + 8 years.

Menkyo on the other hand are as varied as their respective Ryu.

[ZealUK]

There are some koryu which have slightly adapted to modern terminology as "dan" are used in Jigen-ryu for example (though I believe this is largely just a change in vocabulary).

Actually this is incorrect, they have always been called "dan".

[Kendoka]

Or since ZNKR uses seitei as its grading criteria and kenkyo kaiden relates to koryu would you hypothetically receive it as a separate 'qualification' (for want of a better word) from your sensei when you reached that level of knowledge whether that was hachi-dan or not?

Examination criteria for (ZNKR) Seitei Iaido 4 Dan and above includes an increasing number of koryu kata.

Any grade that you attain in Seitei Iaido is not relevant to koryu and vice versa. Of course, a sensei is still a sensei, but an 8th Dan in one may not necessarily be an 8th Dan in the other

[dillon]

Actually this is incorrect, they have always been called "dan".

Ah, then I was being presumptuous. Thanks for the correction.