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Thread: How to break opponent's Kamae?

  1. #16
    Yudansha
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSchmidt View Post
    No, that most definitely isn't the key. There's many answers to this, but that one isn't it .

    There is an awful lot of 'depends' attached to this. What's your level? The opponents? Is he just stiff-arming it or is he actively defending the center (and then stiff-arming it when you attacks).

    Basic starting points could be using kote-men or harai-men. Osae-men if you have a half-decent small/medium men-cut. Tsuki is fraught with etiquette issues, but is another useful tool.
    Improving footwork is usually step one.

    Regardless, all of those guys can be hit when they try to hit you. The more stiff-armed they are, the easier they usually are to pick off when they try to attack.

    Thats sort of strange, fundamentally having better basics than the other guy (or having a better understanding of the body) tends to give one an advantage, doesn't it? For myself personally, I don't just want to take center when dealing with an opponent, I want to effect kuzushi and break their posture so that even if they have fast reactions, they will be unable to respond because the opponent is off balance and can't hit with broken posture. Like you said, depends on your level and that of your opponents.

    You're advocating at the most basic kote men or harai men, both of which, if you can get more energy into the tip of the shinai (not swinging harder mind you with the upper body) can break the kamae. I don't disagree with using either waza, but waza alone isn't the only way. Certainly if you know how to use the body and put a lot of weight into the cut (not swinging hard, but relaxed, coupled with a physical weight drop or "internal" if you know how, proper use of the hips to transfer weight forwards, combinations there of etc) you can kiri otoshi someone's shinai, or just cut on through to a kote, or even knock them off line not only breaking their kamae, but breaking their posture.

    The "Sticky" strong kamae is harder to deal with because the opponent's arms are more relaxed. Now you still should get more weight into your attacks, but you can of course try and preform the shibori motion later than your opponent. You can off course fight more for center, with the power not originating the arms, but in the lower body. Ideally with a "Sticky" kamae, I try and get under their shinai, not moving my shinai underneath their shinai, but I use my hips to push down into the ground, which causes my opponents shinai to float upwards (this is "Jin" in chinese martial arts) and really gives the opponent no way to feel your center as. This is of course predicated on being able to connect to their opponents center, and not just pushing on their shinai as well as spending a ton of time working on this sort of thing.

    A more basic approach which works often works for both types is to simply pressure your opponent with the left hand. Don't push towards the left with your left hand, but push forwards and slightly left, so that you are pressuring into them. When you raise your shinai your opponent's kensen will shift over in the opposite direction (dramatically so if you have someone with a stiff kamae, since a lot of those people push back all the time with their arms). It does not work as dramatically with the sticky kamae, as someone with a sticky kamae isn't pushing/pressuring with the right hand. There is usually some movement however, and may be enough if you can continue on in utilizing the hips and weight to just drive on through mainting control of the center.
    Last edited by hl1978; 3rd February 2012 at 10:11 AM.
    I remember some guy asking Liang Baiping what the philosphy of Taiji was. Baiping looked at him and said, "The philosophy of Taiji is to crash through to their center and kill them".

  2. #17
    Jodan or No Dan b8amack's Avatar
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    If your opponent is "grasping the shinai by all the power" then he's doing it wrong. Let him overcompensate to create an opening for you. But I have the feeling (perhaps wrong) that you're just intimidated by someone who holds kamae, and the best thing for that is just to attack anyway. Remember your goal is not winning (except in shiai) it's improving.

  3. #18
    go-kyu!!! rainmaker's Avatar
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    All this things the other senseis and sempais telling you right now, you will probably and barely understand 10 years later... So important thing is if you will continue to practice next 10 years....
    Your Men is mine....

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by NHH View Post
    I usually keiko with an opponent who has very strong kamae. Every time I go men, he grasping his shinai by all the power. Very difficult to enter, I had to back out. I often deadlocked, it is difficult to hit. He wait for me to tired and go men. My problem is how to break his kamae. Spirit, focus, ok. But I also need technical advice on break kamae. Can you help me?
    What rank are you? That will help narrow down the advice.
    Paul

  5. #20
    Iron Chef BBQ tango's Avatar
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    There is significant wisdom in the articles by Honda-sensei, with which many many people around here are very aware.

    At least one important thing Honda-sensei points out is this concept of [my paraphrase] "if you have an opponent who is very difficult or very challenging, you should practice with him as often as possible."

    If you fight this guy with the strong kamae every single day, eventually, you will figure out something that works against him. In other words -- and at least in my own experience -- you often have to do a lot of things wrong before you can start to figure out how to do things right... or rather, many times you have to figure out what things don't work before you can start to figure out what does work.

    I know guys who have a strong, *physical* kamae ... I know guys who have a strong, *spiritual* kamae... either way, it's "strong kamae". Practically speaking, sometimes osae-waza works well against strong, physical kamae.. sometimes good, very simple seme or an extended tame works well against strong, spiritual kamae. As with most everything in kendo, there are many variables and many "it depends" (as mentioned in this thread previously).

    There are some days when I can be at to-ma.. or just outside of yokote-no-maai... and my opponent's kensen seems incredibly "big"... sometimes I can't seem to move "around" it, either physically or mentally. Even though our shinai are not touching, it is easy to realize, "this guy has strong kamae".

    Anyway, I forgot where I was going with that, but the bottom line is very easy: We can all sit around here, opining and philosophizing on what is or what could be or what should be --- and there is merit to doing such things, definitely (which I quite enjoy doing myself) --- but in the end, you still have to just get on the floor and work it out.

    Trying to figure out an especially difficult opponent is part of the "fun" of kendo. It is challenging, it can be frustrating, it can demoralizing, but by God, there's gonna be one time when you land a good, solid, legitimate strike on him, and you realize --- just like in Rocky IV when it's Balboa vs. the Russian --- "he's not a machine!"

    Never forget that if Kendo were "easy", everybody would do it... and if it were THAT easy, then everybody would soon get bored with it, and then everybody would quit doing it.

    Some advice that has often appeared around this board (and I don't know why I feel like throwing this out here now):
    "If he moves, attack. If he doesn't move, attack."
    "Just focus the opponent!"
    "One lifetime is not enough [to perfect kendo]"

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
    just like in Rocky IV when it's Balboa vs. the Russian --- "he's not a machine!"
    Oh no you didn't! Did you just pull out a Rocky IV moment as a pedagogical tool? Not even the original Rocky, but Rocky IV?!!!
    Paul

  7. #22
    Iron Chef BBQ tango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halcyon View Post
    Oh no you didn't! Did you just pull out a Rocky IV moment as a pedagogical tool? Not even the original Rocky, but Rocky IV?!!!
    oh yes I did!

    haha... but it came from my subconscious probably because Rocky IV was just on tv this past weekend...

  8. #23
    Yudansha jjcruiser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bokushingu View Post
    also try to invite! they are open when they begin an attack. Study Datotsu no Kikai. (watch Kendo kata)
    Hm. Not sure about this depending on how advanced the OP is (which seems to be a bit of a theme here). The reason is that I sometimes try it with sensei when I feel like nothing I am doing breaks their kamae, and even if it works occassionally, whether it worked or not almost invariably the comment I get after class when I ask for suggestions is that I am too passive, and should not wait for them to move, should not be practicing oji waza, etc. Maybe the OP is way ahead of me, though.

  9. #24
    twirly goodness turboyoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjcruiser View Post
    Hm. Not sure about this depending on how advanced the OP is (which seems to be a bit of a theme here). The reason is that I sometimes try it with sensei when I feel like nothing I am doing breaks their kamae, and even if it works occassionally, whether it worked or not almost invariably the comment I get after class when I ask for suggestions is that I am too passive, and should not wait for them to move, should not be practicing oji waza, etc. Maybe the OP is way ahead of me, though.
    Saying that you were too passive is not the same thing as warning you not to invite attacks. Debana waza for example. Another thing with inviting attacks, when dealing with senior kenshi, your invitations are likely too obvious to them so you end up waiting a long time for a reaction that is not going to come. Maybe they are saying you have to exert more pressure and force a reaction you can use.

  10. #25
    twirly goodness turboyoshi's Avatar
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    double posted.

  11. #26
    Blessed Bokushingu's Avatar
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    When i invite, i seme-ashi in and slightly open a target, while threatening my opponent...i'm ready to hit some sort of Debana waza or catch them when they are thinking of attacking that open target...a sudden attack will make them go for the open target, but it will be too late. Passive is simply waiting...you rely on reaction instead of timing. A good understanding of Datotsu no kikai helps executing invites.
    "Fight For the point! Want the point! Then once you've taken it, be greedy & want another!" -- My Sensei

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