Kiriotoshi

[tango]

I'm starting to try to really work kiriotoshi, but having a little bit of difficulty with it...

This video was recommended to me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=garVYcyvRRg

and I also wound up watching this follow-up here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYLQe-3dQ1A

(Thoughts? Comments?)

I'm thinking maybe there's something to this footwok, where it appears Shiina-sensei (in the vids) is saying you need to step your right foot onto the same line as aite's right foot...(??)

I haven't tried that yet (will tonight), but I get very mixed results when just going straight forward. When I do it against much less-experienced players, I'm getting mixed results. Sometimes they're actually (and inadvertently or unintentionally) getting kiriotoshi on me... I do believe my tenouchi/shibori is fine... it seems to be an angle of attack issue and, just as much, a timing issue.

to me, there's clearly a timing issue going on, and I did watch this video (pressed for time didn't get to see the whole thing before wanting to type this all out before running off to practice):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy-EcTaJkyI
...where Takizawa-sensei is saying "it's not oji-waza.. suriage is oji waza, but kiriotoshi is 'like' a "downwards suriage" ... ok, that makes some sense (I think)...

It seems to me that this is NOT supposed to be a swing where you're doing a very tight-angled sayumen... if I do that, I'm just as likely to bounce straight off aite's shinai and not hit his men..

Anyway, the question is --- What is actually involved in this swing?

Setting aside the timing issue for a moment, is the idea something along the lines of swinging straight down, but, say, swinging straight down above the aite's right eyeball (vs. swinging for the center of the men)? ..It seems I've tried that before, but when my body is moving straight forward, then my posture is getting goofy swinging off-center (ostensibly, seems like I wind up swinging this tight-angled sayumen as mentioned before)..

Or is there something to this idea of moving the right foot towards aite's right foot, that as you are also moving forward (or, I guess, technically, your body is moving obliquely, hidari-mai), the combination of doing that and swinging down makes your swing necessarily coming pretty much above aite's right eye, and the body movement + straight swing, winds up knocking aite aside and puts your attack dead on center of men?

...sorry for confusing writing... having a tough time articulating it while i'm pressed for time.. hope it makes some sense..

???

thanks in advance for any thoughts/hints/tips/insight...

[damocles]

Here's another insight from Takizawa-sensei: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy-EcTaJkyI

[jjcruiser]

Here's another insight from Takizawa-sensei: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy-EcTaJkyI

This video is fantastic. Major lightbulb moment. I do not think I can execute the waza and no one's ever taught it to me, but it explained something I'd seen and that's been used on me in a way I hadn't understood before.

[Ariel]

Great videos!

I dream of the day when I learn to perform it properly ...

[Raffa]

Last year Ishiyama Mutsunori sensei teached us the basic kiriotoshi (itto ryu) using a bokken exercise similar to that showed in the following video at 0.40. In the next days he would be here again (2012 kendo in Chianti seminar) and maybe I will obtain more direct information on the argument.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bcFq...eature=related

[Tort-Speed]

Thanks Raffa! Nice also to see Chiba Masashi Sensei explaining Kata #6. His movements, "poetry in motion."

[dillon]

Last year Ishiyama Mutsunori sensei teached us the basic kiriotoshi (itto ryu) using a bokken exercise similar to that showed in the following video at 0.40. In the next days he would be here again (2012 kendo in Chianti seminar) and maybe I will obtain more direct information on the argument.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bcFq...eature=related

I was once shown an Itto-ryu kiriotoshi exercise that looks similar (maybe same). I briefly described it in this post (5th paragraph). Note I mistakenly called it kirioroshi instead of kiriotoshi. The former is simply making a downward cut (as opposed to say diagonal or horizontal) while the latter is cutting through another's cut. Orosu is to drop while otosu is to topple.

[Dezza]

I'm at work so i cant watch the vids.. I've had it explained to me that kiriotoshi is more successful when cutting with the lower muscles of the arm (big cutting action) compared to a 'wristy cut'.

I'm only passing on what ive been told, please dont shoot me down.

[tango]

Tried it last night..... very frustrating. Gonna take some dedicated practice...

Thanks for the responses thus far...

[Halcyon]

Anyway, the question is --- What is actually involved in this swing?

For me, the more difficult the waza, the simpler I have to keep the underlying principle, otherwise my brain gets tied up in a knot thinking about all the angles and various permutations. And kiriotoshi is about as difficult as a waza gets.

I don't consciously practice kiriotoshi, but it does happen from time to time in ai-men situations -- but only when I'm up against a much less experienced opponent; someone who generally tends to swing big. I dunno about moving the right foot toward my opponent's right foot. Never thought about that for men waza, quite honestly. For me, when kiriotoshi does happen, it FEELS like it's because my opponent's tenouchi not as strong as mine. Dunno if that's what's actually going on, but that's what it FEELS like on my end.

When I'm going ai-men against someone, I've never thought, "Oh, let me try kiriotoshi against him/her." I'm just going for ai-uchi timing, and if it happens, it happens.

[sirius1906]

For me, when kiriotoshi does happen, it FEELS like it's because my opponent's tenouchi not as strong as mine.

Luke tried to focus on improving tenouchi last night, borrowing his understanding from iai cuts. Boy-o-boy, it made a night and day difference! Although at my level, I really don't know what I am doing, it felt really good and I got more solid men than before. Father gives good advice, thank you, thank you.

[Raffa]

Wensday evenenig, during the dinner after practise I asked Ishiyama sensei about this.
Here is what I have understanded.
First, Ittoryu waza aim to nullify the enemy sword, and the kata reflect this.
Kiriothoshi is a go no sen waza, but the mental state to execute it is sen no sen.
Is wrong to think that your sword go "over" that of the aite, instead we must think of keeping it in touch with the aite one, shinogi vs shinogi.
Another important point is that the aite last third of the sword must come in contact with the 2/3 portion of our sword.
In the end the Sensei added that there are various kind of kiriothoshi in Ittoryu, that used with a straight men attack is the basic one.

[Kapplow]

IMO kiriotoshi is one of the most gangster, dominating, demoralizing waza. I think of the Alex Bennett interview when he talks about the old guys dominating.
When M sensei blasts me with it, I notice that I've already "pulled the trigger" with my tenouchi as he is on the very end of his upswing. Then he does HIS tenouchi, blasts though my shinai and I'm dead. I've also noticed some sensei will also stand taller and cut up and over you.

[tango]

last three posts there are very interesting... raffa -- thanks for asking your sensei about it... these are all things that I'll be keeping in mind as I work on this waza..

@kapp -- it's been a a while since i've had keiko with M... seems that everytime i've been in front of him, though, he's doing or working on something different (either that, or just as likely, I'm doing something different and he's just adjusting to whatever whacky-ness I am doing..).. Anyway, your point about the tenouchi is also interesting because i've experienced the same thing against him...

much to dwell on...

[Raffa]

last three posts there are very interesting... raffa -- thanks for asking your sensei about it... these are all things that I'll be keeping in mind as I work on this waza...

There is a misunderstanding. Ishiyama sensei is not my sensei (but it would be beautiful), he is an hachidan from Tokyo police (and an important Itto-ryu sensei) that once an year comes in the Chianti area for a very interesting seminar. When I read this post I was just in the right place at the right time so I seized the opportunity to ask. The sensei had been very nice answering my questions.