Kendo and Koryu

[Are2]

Is possible that in the following video we have a koryu kendo application?
I am referring to the "strange" tsuki attempted by Kondo sensei..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hiq8C...layer_embedded

My first thought was that he might also have some experience in jukendo.

[dillon]

That thought occurred to me as well, but one wouldn't be able to hold a sword the same way as a bayoneted rifle (e.g. you can't put your fingers all the way around the blade).

Under standard shiai rules though, wouldn't a soetetsuki type grip earn one a hansoku for improper handling of the shinai?

[Bushido]

Still, I do wish kendo in general had explicitly retained koryu within its curriculum or have it more widely distributed even if it is not officially supported.

I could not agree more.

[Anorymous]

The likeliest reason why there's no kenjutsu taught alongside kendou in Japan is as simple as it's disappointing: The ZNKR don't like rivals.
IIRC, if one receives a rank in an art that teaches the katana but is not part of the ZNKR, one's ZNKR rank is stripped. I don't recall much of the details, but fact is that the ZNKR have a "stranglehold" on the teaching of the Japanese sword. (...did I read that in an article here? I can't seem to remember...)
There's no way I can be 100% sure about this, but it does answer a lot of questions. For instance, why there's a separate ZNIR when ZNKR teaches iaidou: it's because one can be a member of the ZNIR without having to forgo one's iaijutsu style.

So, if there are few people learning both arts in Japan, I think that people world-wide are going to have a quite harder time... and that's a shame, because there are quite a few interesting waza to be picked up if one dissects kenjutsu kata. Personally, I'd like to learn the men-nuki-tsuki from the HNIR curriculum, for instance.

[JSchmidt]

IIRC, if one receives a rank in an art that teaches the katana but is not part of the ZNKR, one's ZNKR rank is stripped.

No, that's most definitely not the case

[dillon]

I personally know one kendo 7-dan who is also a HNIR soke (though there is a disagreement over succession within HNIR) as well as have met or heard of plenty of senior kendo sensei who practice one flavor or another of Itto-ryu amongst others. I've come across a number of koryu kenjutsu traditions that either practice kendo, share the same hall with a kendo practice or have some link to the local kendo renmei (and I mean ZNKR kendo as opposed to koryu in-house bogu and shinai practice as exists within some of the Itto-ryu traditions). So as far as I have seen the ZNKR does not actively nor passively discourage koryu kenjutsu practice, just they neither actively nor passively support it either, at least on a national or international level. On a local level there may be some cooperation however.

[Aden]

The likeliest reason why there's no kenjutsu taught alongside kendou in Japan is as simple as it's disappointing: The ZNKR don't like rivals.
IIRC, if one receives a rank in an art that teaches the katana but is not part of the ZNKR, one's ZNKR rank is stripped. I don't recall much of the details, but fact is that the ZNKR have a "stranglehold" on the teaching of the Japanese sword. (...did I read that in an article here? I can't seem to remember...)
There's no way I can be 100% sure about this, but it does answer a lot of questions. For instance, why there's a separate ZNIR when ZNKR teaches iaidou: it's because one can be a member of the ZNIR without having to forgo one's iaijutsu style.

So, if there are few people learning both arts in Japan, I think that people world-wide are going to have a quite harder time... and that's a shame, because there are quite a few interesting waza to be picked up if one dissects kenjutsu kata. Personally, I'd like to learn the men-nuki-tsuki from the HNIR curriculum, for instance.

Not quite correct, the ZNIR predates the iaido arm of the ZNKR, and if I recall correctly there was some regulation to that effect in the ZNKR prohibiting testing in the other umbrella groups by members (its been 8 years since I was a ZNKR iai affiliate member so I'm open to correction, could have been a local rule) - but that does not effect the koryu, your koryu grades (assuming your koryu has its own dan-i and does not just use the ZNKR grades) are irrelevant to your ZNKR grades - you can be a ZNKR Iaido 4 dan and a XXX Ryu Iaijutsu 6 or 3 dan at the same time, the 6 or 3 has no status in the ZNKR.

[Anorymous]

Not quite correct, the ZNIR predates the iaido arm of the ZNKR, and if I recall correctly there was some regulation to that effect in the ZNKR prohibiting testing in the other umbrella groups by members (its been 8 years since I was a ZNKR iai affiliate member so I'm open to correction, could have been a local rule) - but that does not effect the koryu, your koryu grades (assuming your koryu has its own dan-i and does not just use the ZNKR grades) are irrelevant to your ZNKR grades - you can be a ZNKR Iaido 4 dan and a XXX Ryu Iaijutsu 6 or 3 dan at the same time, the 6 or 3 has no status in the ZNKR.

Ohhhhhhhhh! I seem to have misunderstood the original phrasing, then. In that case, my entire previous post is invalidated.

(I think I'd read that about other "kendou" organisations, such as that one that still allows grapples and stuff, and kinda came to assume that it held true for koryuu as well.)

[Charlie]

Still, I do wish kendo in general had explicitly retained koryu within its curriculum or have it more widely distributed even if it is not officially supported.

Great post. It would be a very different kettle of fish, I think, and maybe more like what the "classical kendo" guys were going for.