New Kendo Taikai Shinpan Rule

[R Stroud]

Yesterday at the North-South California Kendo Taikai, Shikai sensei mentioned a "new" rule for taikai but then withdrew the comment during the shinpan meeting, only saying not to worry about it at this time. I asked about it since I missed the FIK shinpan seminar this year in Canada and had not been there when this was mentioned.

What I found out is not enough to understand it and ask that someone who has heard of or had this explained at a FIK or other event, please post details here. Evidently there is a new rule relating to what happens following a tsuba-zeriai engagement. The "new" rule covers the situation when the contestants withdraw simultaneously and one of them makes a hit immediately following the separation.

Anyone know about this?

[JSchmidt]

I would assume that this refers to the tsubazeria-rules in Japanese highschool kendo competitions.
http://kenshi247.net/blog/2009/11/13...-school-kendo/

AFAIK, there's no plan to apply this to the FIK rules. (I think they just need to enforce the current ones)

[MikeW]

So JSchmidt... were you at the shinpan seminar? The link to George's page is I believe from 2009 so it seems possible that it has made its way into higher level regs by now. I am interested to follow this thread to see if any rule changes are going to be enforced. Many of the japanese students we get are college age and play a very 'high school' style of kendo and typically throw more hikiwaza in a single match than I would in a year so thats my interest. I personally (obviously) am not a big fan of hiki waza as I don't like 'attacking while retreating' (this is how it was framed by a past japanese sensei I studied under. His mindset was that it was a 'cowardly' way to attack.). I know this is not a universal held thought but we all pick up the minds of our sensei as we progress...lol.

[nsylver]

So JSchmidt... were you at the shinpan seminar? The link to George's page is I believe from 2009 so it seems possible that it has made its way into higher level regs by now. I am interested to follow this thread to see if any rule changes are going to be enforced. Many of the japanese students we get are college age and play a very 'high school' style of kendo and typically throw more hikiwaza in a single match than I would in a year so thats my interest. I personally (obviously) am not a big fan of hiki waza as I don't like 'attacking while retreating' (this is how it was framed by a past japanese sensei I studied under. His mindset was that it was a 'cowardly' way to attack.). I know this is not a universal held thought but we all pick up the minds of our sensei as we progress...lol.

On the hikiwaza comment: I am currently in japan in the university club. Every time I come out of tsubazerai they throw a Hiki Waza. If one doesn't occur, something is wrong. Either that or the Japanese student is hung over.

[JSchmidt]

So JSchmidt... were you at the shinpan seminar?

Which seminar?

The link to George's page is I believe from 2009 so it seems possible that it has made its way into higher level regs by now.

Possible, but unlikely. I'm fairly certain it would have been brought up at this years FIK seminars if that had been the case and that we would have heard about it.

[Halcyon]

On the hikiwaza comment: I am currently in japan in the university club. Every time I come out of tsubazerai they throw a Hiki Waza. If one doesn't occur, something is wrong. Either that or the Japanese student is hung over.

Hehehe. I would be surprised if they didn't. BTW, the new tsubazeriai rules for high school students don't say you can't do hiki-waza. Just says that it's a hansoku if you launch an attack when the senshu have already backed away somewhat. As as judge, you can't look at these rules in isolation. The whole intent of the tsubazeriai rule changes is to encourage a more forward-attacking kendo and less time wasting in tsubazeriai.

[DCPan]

I find this discussion interesting because I think it shows an inherent clash of values being instilled in kendo and the conflict idea of sportsmanship and for what is the lack of a better term, bushido (“all is fair in love and war”).

Maybe I’m reading this incorrectly. But it appears to me that the rule is trying to prevent the kind of “dishonorable” strikes where one side attempts to strike when both sides has appeared to “mutually agree” to back away into chudan.

If that is the case, you really have “sportsmanship” versus “all is fair in love and war” here.

Even if the above example is an misinterpretation on my part, you can still see this conflict of ideology especially in team matches. On the one hand, you need to do “sei sei do do” kendo. On the other hand, you have to be able to put aside personal honor to do what is best for the team.

I don’t have an answer per say. Just wanted to bring this up.

[tango]

Maybe I’m reading this incorrectly. But it appears to me that the rule is trying to prevent the kind of “dishonorable” strikes where one side attempts to strike when both sides has appeared to “mutually agree” to back away into chudan.

This is ringing a bell with me... although I swear I heard of it sometime last year...
And Stroud sensei's post makes it sound as if it's something even newer... so i'm a little confused now, too...

[Halcyon]

Maybe I’m reading this incorrectly. But it appears to me that the rule is trying to prevent the kind of “dishonorable” strikes where one side attempts to strike when both sides has appeared to “mutually agree” to back away into chudan.

I suppose you could read it that way, but I think it's better to view the rule changes in totality. What are the rule changes trying to achieve? 1. More forward-attacking kendo. 2. Quit wasting time in tsubazeriai.

Kendo has its own internal aesthetic -- sort of a generally accepted good practices, if you will -- that experienced kendoka generally agree on. Now you might say the root of those aesthetics has to do with honor/dishonor, but I think those arguments get a bit convoluted.

[nebosuke]

DCPan’s interpretation is how I heard it briefly explained by Shikai sensei at the SCKF board meeting following their attendance at the FIK seminar. It’s when there has been an implied mutual agreement to separate and then one tries to take advantage of it. I believe they are waiting until the AUSKF begins holding the new regional shimpan seminars this year to explain it fully and begin implementation. Consider this nothing more than second-hand hearsay until formally instructed!

[dillon]

If the rules are meant to avoid long stalls in tsubazeriai, wouldn't it have been better to simply shorten the time limit before calling wakare? If wakare is called then there's no danger of sneaky hiki-waza. Also I don't know about you but I can't count 10 seconds accurately if I'm worried about being scored on.

[DCPan]

If the rules are meant to avoid long stalls in tsubazeriai, wouldn't it have been better to simply shorten the time limit before calling wakare? If wakare is called then there's no danger of sneaky hiki-waza. Also I don't know about you but I can't count 10 seconds accurately if I'm worried about being scored on.

A common strategy is to not back all the way out to a proper distance so you can actually set up a proper strike, but strike anyway. It's much harder to give them a foul for stalling when they are "attacking". This is a more "discreet" form of stalling at tsubazeriai as it looks like you are doing something when you really are not.

By disallowing an "immediate attack" after backing out, you prevent people from using that as a way to stall.

[DCPan]

Kendo has its own internal aesthetic -- sort of a generally accepted good practices.

Well, perhaps honor/dishonor is a bad choice of words. My real point is that even "generally accepted good practices" aren't as general as one would believe....

[Neil Gendzwill]

If the rules are meant to avoid long stalls in tsubazeriai, wouldn't it have been better to simply shorten the time limit before calling wakare? If wakare is called then there's no danger of sneaky hiki-waza. Also I don't know about you but I can't count 10 seconds accurately if I'm worried about being scored on.

There's no time limit although I have been given guidelines by some sensei. If you feel that both sides are actively looking to score, let them play. If they are stalling, separate them. If someone is repeatedly using the position to stall, penalize him.

[Anime12478]

I kinda file this under the "why is this even an issue?" column. If people are worried about getting hit while trying to break, then it's their fault for letting their guard down in order to get hit. I only feel that the only "mutual" retreats happen during general practice and testing, but I always kept my guard up in case someone sneaks in a hiki-waza on me and assumed that enough people would be doing the same to not try to make this a rule change.