Permitted kamae

**Cypher** · 16th March 2004, 02:20 AM

I have been reading the forums for a few months now and I keep hearing of many different kamae (kasumi in particular recurred in the context of opposing jodan) However, the only kamae I ever saw besides Chudan was jodan, at the UK Mumeishi 3s tournament 2003. Also, in the AJKF handbook, the only kamae listed are chudan, gedan, jodan, hasso and waki. I was just wondering about the scale on which these other kamae are used, and if they can be used indiscriminately or only in certain situations (I acknowledge that in the case of Kasumi v. Jodan, there are advantages to consider, etc)
I have searched the forums, and found nothing particular to clarify this.
Thank you for your time.

**mystic_kendoka** · 16th March 2004, 05:33 AM

normally gedan is rarely ever used, and hasso and waki you would be extremely lucky if u saw it being used in shiai..

hasso is completely useless as it is a replacement for jodan, as when warriors were wearing a kabuto(helmet) it was impossible to lift their arms over their heads, so they had to lift their arms to the side of their head, and so hasso no kamae was made...

wakki, im not so sure about, my sensei says it was because if u cut up, from ur waki no kamae position, it would cut the opponents robe open and he would be naked, giving u a chance to strike... but i dont think this was the reason it was made...

but in shiai, gedan, hasso and wakki are reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally rarely if ever used... if you used hasso or wakki, probably the match would be stopped unless the judges thought the contestants were skilled enough maybe to be trusted...

**Neil Gendzwill** · 16th March 2004, 05:53 AM

I don't see why the match should be stopped if someone uses hasso or wakigamae. The judges may have trouble not laughing...

You sometimes see hasso used as a transition to jodan. A modified gedan is sometimes used, but not normally fought from consistently. Kasumi is used against jodan or nito, but not against chudan. Wakigamae is the only kamae that is completely useless with shinai. I can't think of any reason to try it, other than for fun.

**taiwnezboi** · 16th March 2004, 06:15 AM

is kasumi when you point the tip of the shinai at the opponent's left kote?

**Musha** · 16th March 2004, 06:25 AM

It is when you hold the Shinai diagonally over the top of your head.

--------------
\#\ [ ^ ^ ]
\#\ [ __ ]
\#\ !###!

Lol

**litige** · 16th March 2004, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by mystic_kendoka

wakki, im not so sure about, my sensei says it was because if u cut up, from ur waki no kamae position, it would cut the opponents robe open and he would be naked, giving u a chance to strike... but i dont think this was the reason it was made...

I was told that waki was used to hide the lenght of your blade, you hide a part of it behind you with your opponent not knowing from where you'll strike

**Neil Gendzwill** · 16th March 2004, 07:15 AM

If you search for kasumi here, you'll see several discussions about it's use against jodan or nito, including some descriptions.

**emitbrownne** · 16th March 2004, 06:31 PM

I try all Kamae when fencing....
not all of the time though, normally I switch for one or two bouts towards the end of the class..

I do it when I need a break from concentrating too much on my Chudan.

Plus its fun

Get into a really aggressive waki... grrrr

**ctan** · 16th March 2004, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by litige

I was told that waki was used to hide the lenght of your blade, you hide a part of it behind you with your opponent not knowing from where you'll strike

I was told that too. It's meant to make it really hard for your opponent to judge maai. Additionally, I'm pretty sure my sensei said something to the effect of that upward slashing cut being aimed at the underarm (some artery there that's really vital) since the underarms are not well protected by traditional Japanese armor. Something like that, anyway.

**roar** · 17th March 2004, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by ctan

I was told that too. It's meant to make it really hard for your opponent to judge maai. Additionally, I'm pretty sure my sensei said something to the effect of that upward slashing cut being aimed at the underarm (some artery there that's really vital) since the underarms are not well protected by traditional Japanese armor. Something like that, anyway.

The original idea of hiding the lenght of the sword also makes little sense in kendo, as we all are weilding 39` shinai, right?

Lots of koryu have nice techniques from waki, but they would not make valid points in modern kendo.

**Sentunim** · 18th April 2004, 12:57 PM

Actually, today, while practicing kata, one of my senseis explained that kamae being used to hide the length of the sword too.

jodonnell · 18th April 2004, 01:54 PM

It seems waki would be too slow in shiai; whatever advantage you gain in confusing maai, you would surely counteract by reduced striking speed and lowered guard (being that you'd have to transition to jodan to strike or chudan to pressure/deflect). Woulnd't it be very safe (in the sense you would not risk counterattack), not to mention easy, to strike men on someone in waki?

I think I've seen gedan in a shiai match vid; but it was against a naginatadoka. It wasn't really a 'full' gedan, the kissaki was closer to navel height rather than knee height.

**GBN** · 18th April 2004, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by jodonnell

I think I've seen gedan in a shiai match vid; but it was against a naginatadoka. It wasn't really a 'full' gedan, the kissaki was closer to navel height rather than knee height.

That's so they don't whack you sune(shin) which is a legal naginata/issho target.

Brian