Men

[Karaken]

My san dan student is quite fast with chisai men but it lacks Ooomp and depth most of the time. I told him I wouldn't give him ippon because it lacks tenouchi and ki-ken-tai, but he says it'll count in Japan because it's debana. Does this make sense to you and would it be true in Japan and/or in USA?

[Lloromannic]

It might not need to hit as hard if it is debana or oji-waza (the opponent's forward movement compensates with momentum), but kikentai and tenouchi have to be there.

[dillon]

Whether a men would count in a shiai or not, it can always be improved.

[rfoxmich]

I like Dillon's answer and elaborate. The point, no pun intended, is not whether or not his men is ippon or not. The point is whether his kendo can improve.... then again.. sometimes as an instructor you just have to let it go until the student hits enough of a wall that they are willing to listen to you and take your advice. Horses and water you know.

[Neil Gendzwill]

If he is sandan now then he is looking at the transition to more advanced kendo, adult kendo as some would say. So the next step for him is not so much to hit stronger as to be able to create a chance where he doesn't rely on that speed alone. Once he has that the hit will become more clear.

[Karaken]

If he is sandan now then he is looking at the transition to more advanced kendo, adult kendo as some would say. So the next step for him is not so much to hit stronger as to be able to create a chance where he doesn't rely on that speed alone. Once he has that the hit will become more clear.

Thanks for all good advices but the point is I don't want to misled him for what is and isn't ippon since he needs to be judging himself soon and I need to know what I judge during the torny is close to what it should be. I have not been challenged by anyone yet but I've seen some questionable judging and I want to avoid bad judging as much as I can. Btw, is there really a difference in nuance like this in judging in Japan and USA?

A

[Halcyon]

Well, the proof is in the pudding, isn't it? If he feels his men-uchi is good enough for ippon and the majority of judges agree with him, then he's right. If he finds that he has trouble scoring ippon with men-uchi, then hopefully he will figure out that he needs to change something.

Is he suggesting that men-uchi for debana can be lighter that shikake waza men-uchi? And how does he know that "it'll count in Japan"? Is that where he has practiced for a substantial length of time? Is that where he plans to move to?

[ben]

It's not your responisiblity to give him this knowledge. He trains, he competes, he wins/loses, he learns. He keeps doing Kendo. He doesn't. Let him work it out for himself. I'm not being facetious, that's really all you can, and should, do. b

[Neil Gendzwill]

Btw, is there really a difference in nuance like this in judging in Japan and USA?

My understanding is that they accept a lighter hit at the high school level but this is from my sensei and so probably not that recent with what is going on in Japan at various levels of competition. We've certainly had visitors who were frustrated at the flags not going up for what they thought were valid ippon and what we thought were light. Having said all that there are a lot of elements to a point - if everything else is really clear then having contact be a little light is often let slide.

[Lloromannic]

The criteria do vary a fair bit from place to place, not just from Japan to the US. When I came back from Japan one of my biggest issues was that I was used to shimpan being much stricter with ippon and I kept losing to (my own dang fault of course) hits that I did not even consider ippon threats.

[Karaken]

Well, the proof is in the pudding, isn't it? If he feels his men-uchi is good enough for ippon and the majority of judges agree with him, then he's right. If he finds that he has trouble scoring ippon with men-uchi, then hopefully he will figure out that he needs to change something.

Is he suggesting that men-uchi for debana can be lighter that shikake waza men-uchi? And how does he know that "it'll count in Japan"? Is that where he has practiced for a substantial length of time? Is that where he plans to move to?

Yes he's from Japan and he has young kids so either he competed in High school or college. Yes he is suggesting Debana can be lighter than Shikake and still be ippon in Japan.

[Karaken]

It's not your responisiblity to give him this knowledge. He trains, he competes, he wins/loses, he learns. He keeps doing Kendo. He doesn't. Let him work it out for himself. I'm not being facetious, that's really all you can, and should, do. b

I understand Ben but when we do Ippon shobu, I need to call it to finish. After 2 or 3 of these lighter touch men, I am not sure I should continue. He's good and fast and I'm saying he can improve on that. He's saying yes he can improve but where he competed ( Japan ) it all counts.

[Karaken]

My understanding is that they accept a lighter hit at the high school level but this is from my sensei and so probably not that recent with what is going on in Japan at various levels of competition. We've certainly had visitors who were frustrated at the flags not going up for what they thought were valid ippon and what we thought were light. Having said all that there are a lot of elements to a point - if everything else is really clear then having contact be a little light is often let slide.

Thanks for your comment Neil. As I observe, the trend in Japan is going even more than past on light hit. In Debana, lighter ones ( some barely touching ) score. I also noticed in Korea, a lot of Do strike scores. While in Japan, it's very hard to score a Do ippon. With these many different nuances in scoring, are we doing a good job in being a shimpan? Can we? Have we?

[Karaken]

The criteria do vary a fair bit from place to place, not just from Japan to the US. When I came back from Japan one of my biggest issues was that I was used to shimpan being much stricter with ippon and I kept losing to (my own dang fault of course) hits that I did not even consider ippon threats.

Yes it seems in Japan, anything can score if you find an opening.

[JSchmidt]

I understand Ben but when we do Ippon shobu, I need to call it to finish. After 2 or 3 of these lighter touch men, I am not sure I should continue. He's good and fast and I'm saying he can improve on that. He's saying yes he can improve but where he competed ( Japan ) it all counts.

It's funny. We currently got a young (2nd/3rd dan, not sure) Japanese exchange student in our dojo and I saw him work with one of our juniors yesterday, ignoring hits (from the junior) that weren't solid enough.
I think as a senior, it's your prerogative to declare the hits too light. I know that with our old teacher (who has now retired to Japan), we had to hit much more solid during keiko than was ever required in shiai.
In Japan, (generalizing here from relatively little real experience), they seem more likely to give points based on timing & opportunity rather than the actual hit.