Kata Crazy!!!

[Lloromannic]

Josh, it's a nidan exam. If he does all the dance steps OK and doesn't fall over, it will be good. He's going to be paired with some random partner so if he goes into it with a lot of fire it will likely not work out very well.

Hell, it is nidan in japan, if he manages to not murder an examiner and set himself on fire, it will be ok.

[MikeW]

Hell, it is nidan in japan, if he manages to not murder an examiner and set himself on fire, it will be ok.

I had to chuckle at that!

[neanderthal]

Hell, it is nidan in japan, if he manages to not murder an examiner and set himself on fire, it will be ok.


This is so true!!! stay beneath the radar and i will be fine.

but during my sho dan i messed up 1 kata - or they said i did and it threw my confidence right off.

i was singled out infront of id say 2000 people to do it again. luckily my partner was very kind and moved to give me hints.

this time im going to get everything perfect - no way am i being singled out again!!!

all your advice is really appreciated and taken on board!!! thank you for all the time youve given to me!!!

[Neil Gendzwill]

Yonhonme (Kata 4)

- the first three steps by both side should be smaller than normal, it should feel like you're too far away

I would check with the local sensei first as this has changed. I was originally taught with small steps and that both sides should adjust if too close. Now we are taught with regular steps, and uchidachi should adjust as the maai is going to be too close. But some people may still be teaching the other way, or perhaps it has gone back the other way.

At any rate the key thing to get right in #4 is shidachi's footwork, everyone has trouble with stepping back onto the right foot to cut, everyone has trouble stepping deep enough so that the distance is right.

[Fudo-Shin]

I would check with the local sensei first as this has changed. I was originally taught with small steps and that both sides should adjust if too close. Now we are taught with regular steps, and uchidachi should adjust as the maai is going to be too close. But some people may still be teaching the other way, or perhaps it has gone back the other way.

Hi Neil, I can confirm that we also have had this issue come up recently in our corner of the globe. I now make a point of not backing up as shidachi and making enough distance if I am uchidachi. I believe the trick here is to cut with enough extension in the ai-uchi situation (both sides) so that uchidachi only needs to back up minimally. I think if we don't get the right distance here and/or the cut is not straight for the ai-men , the kata can continue to degrade from that point.

I would watch and listen closely to any directions or talk about this kata before a shinsa too, if no-one mentions anything, it may even pay to ask a grading panelist if you can find a quiet moment (which may not present itself at a big shinsa in Japan, I guess). Watching others while you wait may also help and, of course, checking with your own sensei.

While I am at it, regarding sanbonme; some sensei teach that uchidachi's bokuto should deflect shidachi's attack with the "shinogi" of the blade while backing up, and others seem to teach us to use the "ha" of the blade. I have now been instructed to use the ha as opposed to the original way I was taught (with the shinogi). So some minor confusion there too perhaps?

At any rate; "When in Rome"...

[verissimus]

While I am at it, regarding sanbonme; some sensei teach that uchidachi's bokuto should deflect shidachi's attack with the "shinogi" of the blade while backing up, and others seem to teach us to use the "ha" of the blade. I have now been instructed to use the ha as opposed to the original way I was taught (with the shinogi). So some minor confusion there too perhaps?

At any rate; "When in Rome"...

Been through that confusion. When I was first taught kata, I was taugh to receive with the ha, since receiving with shinogi (I was told) could damage the shidachi's cutting edge. Then I moved to Calif. and here I've been taught to receive with shinogi.

[MikeW]

I had always been told that you receive with the shinogi to avoid damaging your own ha and that you should be using shinogi/shinogi contact.

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you receive with the ha and pull in sharply towards yourself, uchidachi's sword is deflected quite strongly. This is not the same as pushing to the side; rather you are using the curve of the blade to accomplish this.

[verissimus]

If you receive with the ha and pull in sharply towards yourself, uchidachi's sword is deflected quite strongly. This is not the same as pushing to the side; rather you are using the curve of the blade to accomplish this.

Sorry, I didn't understand. Are you saying that the geometry of the blade lends itself more naturally to ha being used instead of shinogi in sanbonme? Perhaps the more pertinent question is, would that be considered grounds for failing a candidate?

[neanderthal]

If you receive with the ha and pull in sharply towards yourself, uchidachi's sword is deflected quite strongly. This is not the same as pushing to the side; rather you are using the curve of the blade to accomplish this.

this is very true. its what we focused on this last weekend and i thought it was very cool the way it was deflected. also wondered if there would be any practical use in kendo keiko?

[dillon]

No doubt. But that's kinda my issue with how the Kendo no Kata are done.

I'm sympathetic to this. Kata can be alive but more often than not it's practiced like boring calisthenics. As I understand it, it's within YSKR to break from the kata and exploit an opening if one presents itself (can't remember where I read or heard that so could be wrong). I've seen a demonstration of YSKR at Meiji Jingu during Culture Day where it seems more emphasis was placed on the spirit of the cut than perhaps form (I'm guessing). It appeared to be some kind of what we would call in kendo uchikomi or kakarigeiko as the blows land on the motodachi... no armor and with fukuro shinai: yikes!.

Having said that, I wouldn't do this for a grading but it would be nice if the sensei would allow this for practice (assuming there's confidence it can be done safely).

[MikeW]

If you receive with the ha and pull in sharply towards yourself, uchidachi's sword is deflected quite strongly. This is not the same as pushing to the side; rather you are using the curve of the blade to accomplish this.

That's similar to what I was taught only using the shinogi instead of ha, or at least concentrating on using the shinogi instead of ha although both might be involved to some degree during the range of motion I suppose.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Sorry, I didn't understand. Are you saying that the geometry of the blade lends itself more naturally to ha being used instead of shinogi in sanbonme?

Yes. As an experiment, hold your bokken in front of you in chudan. Rotate the blade over but keep the tsuka aligned so that it is pointing straight at the opponent. The more you rotate, the more the kensen comes off-centre. So when you pull your hands straight in to your body and rotate the blade, combined with the sharp step back, you force the incoming blade off line. When the blade is completely sideways, ie using the ha, you get the maximum effect.

Perhaps the more pertinent question is, would that be considered grounds for failing a candidate?

In my opinion, none of the fine details in themselves are sufficient grounds for failing a candidate, although personally I have only been a judge for up to sandan. At lower levels, I am looking too see that they have actually practiced the kata. At higher levels I am more looking at the overall shape and feel of the kata. Major mistakes are going to pop out but minor ones or differences in interpretation are OK.

Of course when instructing we make sure all the details are right, or at least right in my opinion. Ask 10 sensei about kata, get 12 opinions.

[hl1978]

Yes. As an experiment, hold your bokken in front of you in chudan. Rotate the blade over but keep the tsuka aligned so that it is pointing straight at the opponent. The more you rotate, the more the kensen comes off-centre. So when you pull your hands straight in to your body and rotate the blade, combined with the sharp step back, you force the incoming blade off line. When the blade is completely sideways, ie using the ha, you get the maximum effect.

I'll note that at the gekken seminar I attended last year, this was part of their basic waza. You use the curvature to force your opponents sword offline and continued forward to cut the head/wrist on the same angle as you received the cut.

[Manuka]

If you receive with the ha and pull in sharply towards yourself, uchidachi's sword is deflected quite strongly. This is not the same as pushing to the side; rather you are using the curve of the blade to accomplish this.

For Kata #3 I thought you receive with Mune to Mune
Kata #4 Shinogi