Kata Crazy!!!

[jjcruiser]

however after this last weekends camp being a shodan im needing to learn from scratch kata 3 and 4 for my 2 dan. ( 7 more weeks )

You've already gotten a lot of good advice and generated a lot of interesting discussion, but just because I'm curious: Are you saying that you didn't need kata3 for shodan? In (at least the two regionals I've been in) the US you need Kata 1-3 for ikkyu, 1-5 for shodan, and 1-7 for nidan. Is that different in Japan? What's the progression in Japan?

[Lloromannic]

1-3 for shodan
1-5 Nidan
1-7 Sandan
1-7 1-3 Yondan+

[neanderthal]

You've already gotten a lot of good advice and generated a lot of interesting discussion, but just because I'm curious: Are you saying that you didn't need kata3 for shodan? In (at least the two regionals I've been in) the US you need Kata 1-3 for ikkyu, 1-5 for shodan, and 1-7 for nidan. Is that different in Japan? What's the progression in Japan?

im pretty sure that it was just 1,2 and 5 for shodan. and none for ikkyu.
it was 5 yeas ago so i maybe mistaken but im pretty sure this is how it was.
also ikkyu was taken the day before i took the shodan which ive read isnt possible.
this was a pretty big test too well over 500 students. so it wasnt a mess up by anyone.
but for my 2 dan its definately 1-5 kata.

[jjcruiser]

1-3 for shodan
1-5 Nidan
1-7 Sandan
1-7 1-3 Yondan+

Interesting. I wonder what the history of it is that those are shifted one rank up/down depending how you look at it in the US.

[Electronegative]

im pretty sure that it was just 1,2 and 5 for shodan. and none for ikkyu.
it was 5 yeas ago so i maybe mistaken but im pretty sure this is how it was.
also ikkyu was taken the day before i took the shodan which ive read isnt possible.
this was a pretty big test too well over 500 students. so it wasnt a mess up by anyone.
but for my 2 dan its definately 1-5 kata.

According to AUSKF rules:
1-3 for ikkyu
1-5 for Shodan
1-7 for Nidan
1-7 plus kodachi kata for Sandan.

http://www.auskf.info/docs/2012/Kend...quirements.pdf

[b8amack]

1-3 for shodan
1-5 Nidan
1-7 Sandan
1-7 1-3 Yondan+

What? When did they change that?

[Lloromannic]

I couldn't tell you an exact date but I'd assume that it dates from about the same time as the introduction of the Bokuto ni Yoru

[jjcruiser]

According to AUSKF rules:
1-3 for ikkyu
1-5 for Shodan
1-7 for Nidan
1-7 plus kodachi kata for Sandan.

http://www.auskf.info/docs/2012/Kend...quirements.pdf

The OP is in Japan. They (obviously) have different requirements than we do. I wonder if it will change here to acclimate.

B8amack, what is it in Korea?

[b8amack]

The OP is in Japan. They (obviously) have different requirements than we do. I wonder if it will change here to acclimate.

B8amack, what is it in Korea?

It's the same as whoever posted the AUSKF breakdown (although ikkyu is not an important test, and is only done in-dojo).

[J.S]

I'm on my way to work so I didn't have time to read the whole thread.

General note on how to memorize: use your head. Close your eyes and go through the Kata in your mind. Start with only the big picture, then gradualy add as much detail as possible.

[Charlie]

They are 100 years old, and legend has it Takano wore a tanto to the design meetings, ready to kill himself in protest if the meetings did not go well. They've been brought down to you through war and social change, with blood, sweat, and tears. They shouldn't be done like they normally are.

This is an amazing post. A couple of thoughts if I may:

-No doubt, we should do kata more often.
-No doubt, we should do kata with great mindfulness.
-But, our understanding of kata and ability to perform it happens in stages. The first stages are just getting all the movements correct. Meaning, intention, chi, focus, the push and pull - that only comes with time.
-Isn't this, in most traditions, how kata was approached? One does not depart from the sequence in kata until one us advanced (shu, ha, ri).

[neanderthal]

My kata are coming along. daily i spend time on the internet watching the kata and writing it all down as well as visualizing them. also now twice a week until august 11th one of my teachers will drill in every movement. then i also have the seminar before the test day. 4 days of pure kata.
its great that everyone has come together to help me and anyone else in the same boat. i really appreciate your time and effort and will do you justice by taking that 2 dan proudly!!! Thank you!!!

[Josh Reyer]

This is an amazing post. A couple of thoughts if I may:

-No doubt, we should do kata more often.
-No doubt, we should do kata with great mindfulness.
-But, our understanding of kata and ability to perform it happens in stages. The first stages are just getting all the movements correct. Meaning, intention, chi, focus, the push and pull - that only comes with time.
-Isn't this, in most traditions, how kata was approached? One does not depart from the sequence in kata until one us advanced (shu, ha, ri).

I can only speak for my particular line of YSR.

Yes, first the basic movements of the kata have to be learned. But this is exceedingly simple, and the basic movements are learned in a couple weeks of regular practice, if that. I mean, you can practice the basic movements of the kata indoors, miming the sword. But in these early days, more important than doing the moves "right" are doing the movements "zenshin-zenrei" - full body and spirit. Better crappy technique full of intent and spirit than lifeless, though technically "correct", movement. It's considered easy to go full throttle and polish off the rough edges than to try and add intensity to mannered movement.

From day one, students are taught that the kata doesn't stop because someone makes a mistake, or if shidachi fails to win. And if someone makes a mistake like getting the order wrong, rather than stop in the middle and start over, they should do that mistake with full commitment, with their partner responding appropriately. Not even a year in, some of my seniors would make a mistake(?) and cut for my hands instead of my legs. If I got hit because of that, it was my fault for mindlessly doing the kata instead of watching my aite. Only a couple months in, my teacher told me not to overthink things during the kata, but to do it with mushin.

About six months in, seniors started varying maai and timing within the kata and nailing me.

It's said in our dojo, "The kata is the outcome of proper practice, not the goal." In other words, once the basic moves are learned, which doesn't take long, then the point of practice is to approach the kata with full intent and intensity, watching aite and being ready for anything, because it's only in that state that the kata start to unlock their secrets.

Shu-ha-ri is not a single, linear process. It's concentric circles feeding back on themselves without end. It starts with the very first cut.

[b8amack]

Yes, first the basic movements of the kata have to be learned. But this is exceedingly simple, and the basic movements are learned in a couple weeks of regular practice, if that. I mean, you can practice the basic movements of the kata indoors, miming the sword. But in these early days, more important than doing the moves "right" are doing the movements "zenshin-zenrei" - full body and spirit. Better crappy technique full of intent and spirit than lifeless, though technically "correct", movement. It's considered easy to go full throttle and polish off the rough edges than to try and add intensity to mannered movement.

From day one, students are taught that the kata doesn't stop because someone makes a mistake, or if shidachi fails to win. And if someone makes a mistake like getting the order wrong, rather than stop in the middle and start over, they should do that mistake with full commitment, with their partner responding appropriately. Not even a year in, some of my seniors would make a mistake(?) and cut for my hands instead of my legs. If I got hit because of that, it was my fault for mindlessly doing the kata instead of watching my aite. Only a couple months in, my teacher told me not to overthink things during the kata, but to do it with mushin.

tbh, I wish kendo kata practice was more like that.

[Hisham]

I can only speak for my particular line of YSR.

Yes, first the basic movements of the kata have to be learned. But this is exceedingly simple, and the basic movements are learned in a couple weeks of regular practice, if that. I mean, you can practice the basic movements of the kata indoors, miming the sword. But in these early days, more important than doing the moves "right" are doing the movements "zenshin-zenrei" - full body and spirit. Better crappy technique full of intent and spirit than lifeless, though technically "correct", movement. It's considered easy to go full throttle and polish off the rough edges than to try and add intensity to mannered movement.

From day one, students are taught that the kata doesn't stop because someone makes a mistake, or if shidachi fails to win. And if someone makes a mistake like getting the order wrong, rather than stop in the middle and start over, they should do that mistake with full commitment, with their partner responding appropriately. Not even a year in, some of my seniors would make a mistake(?) and cut for my hands instead of my legs. If I got hit because of that, it was my fault for mindlessly doing the kata instead of watching my aite. Only a couple months in, my teacher told me not to overthink things during the kata, but to do it with mushin.

About six months in, seniors started varying maai and timing within the kata and nailing me.

It's said in our dojo, "The kata is the outcome of proper practice, not the goal." In other words, once the basic moves are learned, which doesn't take long, then the point of practice is to approach the kata with full intent and intensity, watching aite and being ready for anything, because it's only in that state that the kata start to unlock their secrets.

Shu-ha-ri is not a single, linear process. It's concentric circles feeding back on themselves without end. It starts with the very first cut.

I'd bet that in Itto ryu, the view and practice of kata isn't that far from how it is in YSR.
I sometimes wonder what Takano Sasaburo sensei (and the other sensei that took part in creating the kendo kata) would say about the way kata is learned in today's kendo, was it this way from the start or was it toned down/made "safe" post WW2?
My second sensei thought us to do kata as you said with full body and spirit, the thing is come shinsa as was pointed out by other members, we'd have to just do it mechanically for the obvious reason that most kenshi at low dan levels do it that way.