Using Ki-ai befor striking...

[Blue Bogu]

Whan you yell before going in to attack, what should the time be from yelling to striking???

[DCPan]

Whan you yell before going in to attack, what should the time be from yelling to striking???

Ideally or realistically?

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

[MrTuffPaws]

Well, back in Karate, we would ki-ai as we were striking the target. Now in Kendo, Sensei wants us to begin the ki-ai before we hit the target. Don't make sense to me really, being that you are telling your opponent that you are coming, but I do what Sensei says.

As for when to hit. This is what we were told. The ki-ai should be louder after you strike than before. Something like a rolling crescendo.

[Angel_Down]

It depends on the nature of the kiai. From my (limited) experience in shiai and from attending various taikai and watching matches online, one can either kiai to "psyche out" an opponent (as one GB squad member put it, penetrate your opponent's concentration) or when you actually make the cut. Mumeishi's Young Sensei always ensures that when we go for a cut we have to time the kiai with the strike and fumikomi together so it becomes one. Take your pick!

One question related to this - is it absolutely essential to have kiai to score a point? I was watching some WKC matches and some of the points scored were without kiai. Just curious.

[DCPan]

Whan you yell before going in to attack, what should the time be from yelling to striking???

I was told that "ideally", it'd be within the time-span of "one breath".

After the initial kiai, your hip should be engaged and your breath is held until the strike/breathing out. Conversely, having a bright and piercing kiai requires the engaging of your hips/diaphragm...so it kinda goes hand in hand.

If you can't find an opening before your breath runs out, that's when things get interesting...

After all, when you breath in and out are considered moments to attack....

FWIW

[Musha]

I once read that you should do a

Big Kiai at the start
Then small kiai in the middle
Big Kiai at the end

I used to do big Kiai all the time but the Kiai actually made me loose breath and concentration. One of my Sensei did an exercise where you do a big Kiai and hold you breath, then this makes you more alert and eager to strike that helps with Debana.

Although another young boy that was taught by that same sensei in another dojyo does a large kiai and tries to hold his breath every time he has a chance in a Jigeiko. Using his hole body to scream at you, going into a very strange posture that looks pretty funny .

'Ki-ai' literally means meeting your energy or bringing your energy together. I think it should be done naturally and you develop your own Kiai and should not use any energy.

[not-I]

I think it should be done naturally and you develop your own Kiai and should not use any energy.

It even seems to increase energy. Someone told me this is partly because you are exhaling so much. Cramps in the side for instance are due to too little exhalation.
I recall a beginner's class some years ago where sensei showed up and put everyone through a grueling suburi marathon. Whenever we started "wussing out" in technique or kiai he'd let out this monstrous angry kiai, we'd get louder and stronger again, and back into the groove. I think the only way most of us survived (some people just threw in the towel), was through kiai.
So use the force, Lukes and Leahs!

[mingshi]

one can either kiai to "psyche out" an opponent (as one GB squad member put it, penetrate your opponent's concentration) or when you actually make the cut.

hehehe.... Just don't kiai WHILE you are running and cutting! ... Nor kiai by shouting "Die! Die!" in another language! Damn the IC boys, made me laugh so much...

is it absolutely essential to have kiai to score a point? I was watching some WKC matches and some of the points scored were without kiai. Just curious.

IKF/AJKF rules Part I, Chapter 2, Section 2, Article 12 (about Yuko-Datotsu, or Valid Stiking...):-

"Yuko-datotsu is defined as an accurate strike or thrust made onto Datotsu-bui (target areas) of the opponent's Kendo-gu (kendo gears) with Shinai at its Datotsu-bu (top 1/3 of the shinai) in high spirits and correct posture, being followed by Zanshin."

So seemingly "kiai" isn't necessary - well, depends on how you define HIGH SPIRITS and ZANSHIN. Kiai can be part of the spirit and zanshin, no? Having a strong kiai enhances everything, adding another dimension to the cuts you've made...

Watching tape is another thing tho. Sometimes it depends on whether the camera is zooming in from far away. If it was a big hall, flag doing up fast, and with the crowds cheering, even if you sit right next to the court, you don't even hear the kiai!

Now in Kendo, Sensei wants us to begin the ki-ai before we hit the target.

Well, the one BEFORE sounds different from the one AFTER. You know, waaaaaa............... and then "Meee--n", no?

it'd be within the time-span of "one breath".

Yeah that's the best answer I got so far from another sensei as well. After standing up from Sonkyo, and kiai, I try holding my breath ----------------until ----------------- I can't hold it anymore --------- and launch myself in!

[Halcyon]

Well, back in Karate, we would ki-ai as we were striking the target. Now in Kendo, Sensei wants us to begin the ki-ai before we hit the target. Don't make sense to me really, being that you are telling your opponent that you are coming, but I do what Sensei says.

you shouldn't 'advertise' the fact that you're about to attack by consistently making a kiai that starts immediately before you strike. when your sensei says that you should kiai BEFORE you strike, he means that you should kiai as you stand in kamae. then, ideally, you hold your breath until you launch into an explosive attack, at which time, you let out another kiai to coincide with the strike. the first kiai in kamae serves a number of purposes. (there have been other threads about this.)

of course, if you're in kamae a long time, you'll have to breath. but the theory is that if you breath after you've let out your initial kiai, you dissipate the energy that you've gathered in your tanden (just under the bellybutton), which is the source of your explosive power.

also, you want to mix up the timing between the kiai in kamae and your strike, so that the interval doesn't become too predictable. some people get into a habit of doing kiai and then boom, kiai and then boom, kiai and then boom, without any variation.

[supernils]

I thing that
Kiai is an expression of spirit just as bowing is an expression of of respect.
Gain it, then express it.
If you feel like screaming while/after cutting someone with a sword, just let let it out.

[DCPan]

Any singers in the crowd?

You can't sing/kiai/project your voice without a solid stance/foundation.

In one of the dojos where I've training at one point in time, one of the exercises done was trying to kiai and hold it as long as you can while doing suri-ashi across the gym that we were training in.

If your voice cracked or wavered or had other "problems" while you did that, it was a good indication that something in your footwork/posture isn't working.

Also, if you don't feel feel stronger from your kiai, chances are you aren't using your hara (i.e. just shouting with your throat or upper body).

One of the analogy in Baba Kinji sensei's book "Kendo: Traditional Skills(my translation of the Japanese title)" is that doing a kiai while facing your opponent is like revving your engines.

FWIW

[mystic_kendoka]

Sensei wants us to begin the ki-ai before we hit the target. Don't make sense to me really, being that you are telling your opponent that you are coming, but I do what Sensei says.

this does make sense, because that kiai also has the ability to make the one about to be attacked nervous...

i experienced this, in the easter seminar in Oostduinkerke '04.
we had a mini learning tournament, and when i did my shiai there, i went up against a girl, (i havent been able to do kendo for very long now, but i am quite confident that i would normally at least last a minute or two before losing...) when we started, about 2 seconds later she kiaied and moved inwards, i knew she was going to attack, and i just froze, it was strange...

normally im not afraid of even the adults who are much physically stronger and also better in kendo, but with this 14 year old girl, younger than me, but better in kendo, i just went braindead... and so she scored a men without me even attempting to do nuki/kaeshi/suriage or any other waza that might have helped...

this may not work on all kendoka as it has on me, since most in shiai will be more developed than me, but it did affect me greatly...

[Eldritch Knight]

One of the analogy in Baba Kinji sensei's book "Kendo: Traditional Skills(my translation of the Japanese title)" is that doing a kiai while facing your opponent is like revving your engines.
FWIW

That's a good analogy. My club back in Japan used kiai sort of in this manner. We would kiai, but unless we could find a good opening, we wouldn't attack. If we felt that a reasonable amount of time had passed (like a minute or so - not uncommon in shiai) we'd simply kiai again.

[moetl]

am i allowed to kiai when someone hits me? kote for example...
i thought of this as a valve for the cruel pain one suffers from a kote hit ^_^

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

if someone hits you and you shout KOTEEE, its like sayin "hi he hit me, score him the point", its also quite funny and youl probably get laughed at, you can probly sigh "oh shiiiit" or something..... as for Kiai, well its more of a prolonged thing, you shout up to when you hit and as soon as you strike you name the strike, naming it before hand is like telling you opponent what your going to do