ive been watching videos of kata, and all the time i see attack, evade, counter attack. from what ive read on swordsmanship in japan, it eventually became stagnant because swordsman were masters in counterattack. i wonder if this is how sword fights went in japan. short and over in one move. are there any extended videos where the fight is not over in one counter attack?
see the problem with finding videos of old school japan fighting with swords is that video technology wasn't invented.
Pioneering Britisher Eadweard Muybridge (1830-1904), an early photographer and inventor, was famous for his photographic loco-motion studies (of animals and humans) at the end of the 19th century (such as "The Horse in Motion"). In 1870 at a Sacramento (California) racecourse, he first used a row of 12 cameras, equally spaced along the racetrack, to record the movement of a galloping horse, to prove that all four of the horse's feet were off the ground at the same time. In 1877-1878, he repeated the experiment for his wealthy San Francisco benefactor, Leland Stanford, using 24 cameras to record another horse's gallops.
Muybridge's pictures, published widely in the late 1800s, were often cut into strips and used in a Praxinoscope, a descendant of the zoetrope device, invented by Charles Emile Reynaud in 1877. The Praxinoscope was the first 'movie machine' that could project a series of images onto a screen. Muybridge's stop-action series of photographs helped lead to his own 1879 invention of the Zoopraxiscope (or "zoogyroscope"), a primitive motion-picture projector machine that also recreated the illusion of movement (or animation) by projecting images - rapidly displayed in succession - onto a screen from photos printed on a rotating glass disc.
Around the same time, Parisian innovator and physiologist Etienne-Jules Marey was also studying, experimenting, and recording bodies (animals) in motion using photographic means (and astronomer Pierre-Jules-Cesar Janssen's "photographic revolver" idea). In 1882, Marey, often claimed to be the 'inventor of cinema,' constructed a camera (or "photographic gun") that could take multiple (12) photographs per second of moving animals or humans - called chronophotography. [The term shooting a film was possibly derived from Marey's invention.] He was able to record multiple images of a subject's movement on the same camera plate, rather than the individual images Muybridge had produced. His chronophotographs (multiple exposures on single glass plates and on strips of sensitized paper - celluloid film - that passed automatically through a camera of his own design) were revolutionary. He was soon able to achieve a frame rate of 30 images. The work of Muybridge and Marey laid the groundwork for the development of motion picture cameras and projectors - hence the development of cinema.
But all this happened AFTER samurais (by title) was abolished, and by then, guns were used in battles. So to answer your question, no there are not extended videos of battles being over in not one strike.
Will
You don't need to go back in time to see samurai fight though. Many of the iai koryu have techniques over 700 years old. As for the question, yes it does seem that most fights were over in one or 2 hits. A sword fight was decided quickly and brutally with the lesser skilled oponent often making the first mistake followed by a counter attack. Duels often took place with the 2 swordsmen changing positions of the sword into different kamaes to draw an attack, after that the fight itself was a short affair.
http://rpg.samuraiwar.com/page.php?x=2360252
Well, the third kata goes on a bit longer. For modern screen "re-enactments," although it's cheesy, that one scene from The Last Samurai where Tom Cruise is bokken-sparring with the guy who had earlier given him a beatdown, and the other guys are betting on how many moves it will take, is a good example. But of course, the duel scenes in any Kurosawa movie take the cake. Point being, they all finish pretty quickly and were nothing like the typical European stab/parry/slash/parry/stab/parry/etc. duels you see in pirate movies.Originally Posted by xifoarhos
Another important thing to remember about historical duels with katana between "average" swordfighters is that, typically, both of them ended up dead or critically injured. Even the great Musashi got knicked on the forehead in his famous duel with Sasaki.
i was not referring to videos of actual samurai duels. but heres a follow up to my post. kenjutsu is supposed to be composed of powerful high commitment strikes. when you attack someone, they will counter attack. has anyone thought of a fake first attack, or one without too much strength so you can receive the counter attack? from the way you describe kenjutsu(with duels of average swordsman in which they are both killed or terribly wounded), it seems barbaric and inelegant. i believe duels were not actually like this. when using live blades, its difficult to throw yourself straight forward as is done in kata. also, for those of you who read the book of five rings, the way musashi describes his fights, they seem to be longer and consist of more swordplay. also, a treatise on swordsmanship called discourse with the tengu(im sorry but ive forgotten the author and its japanese name), the author speaks of swordplay flowing from the swordsman. this also indicates longer fights. id think that samurai would see others hurling themselves forward with a strike, only to be cut down with a counter attack enough times that they would be smart enough to not do that.
heres something i forgot to add. as for the bokken duels in the last samurai, thats more of wat im talking about. and ive also read in yamamoto tsunemoto's book hidden leaves, a few accounts of sword fights that went on pretty long, with the participants sustaining cuts, but nothign crippling to the effect that they cant fight. once they got a wound like that they wer finished off.
One of the main reason why japanese duels did not go on for long was the lethality/trauma of the blows recieved. The hard, deep cuts combined with the sharpness of the sword left people seriously wounded and often dead as compared to the smaller nicks and cuts that rapiers would often inflict. Even a lethal stab with a rapier would take time to manifest itself leaving the oponents to continue to tussel.
I'm not sure what you mean by not being able to throw yourself forward with a live blade, if you train enough it doesn't matter what blade you are holding, its the natural reaction and movement of your body to attack. If you instead try fakes and weak hits you run the risk of the oponent killing you while you waste your time with non-dangerous moves. If you're going to waste the energy and open yourself up to danger you usually want to be sure that your going to win the exchange.
As for musashi and the other stories, musashi's duels were not long, about 30 seconds of actual sword fighting if that. The rest of the time was spent studying the oponent and goading them to make the first mistake.
http://rpg.samuraiwar.com/page.php?x=2360252
I'd think most sword fights where over quickly, but remember no one is alive who can say yes or no to that fact. even those who write about swordsmanship, may seem to talk for ages on a particular battle but there is no time relationship. If you think about flowing cuts a bit you realise that they don't mean long battles, if anything flowing cuts would make them shorter. My reasoning is this: flowing cuts means you can potentially strike more often and with greater conviction whereas what you say about fake cuts would only serve to 1)make you slower and 2) give an opening for them to cut with.
Xifoarhos: It is obvious you don't practice kendo or kenjutsu, only read and think about it, because if you did practice, you wouldn't have these questions. So if you want to really find answers, then get thee to a dojo!
ITMT, kendo emphasises ippon (the single decisive cut) for aesthetic, philosophical *and* practical reasons. However many schools of koryu bujutsu have extended kata. Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu (see if you can find the BBC TV series "Way of the Warrior" from the 80s for some great footage) has some pretty lengthy kata. TSKSR from the little I've seen is a rather swashbuckling style, and I don't mean that disparagingly at all. "Ran-ai", the last kata from Muso Shinden Ryu Jodo has umpteen attacks and counters before reaching a "conclusion".
If you're interested in battlefield psychology, the International Hoplological Society have a website. Don Drager was the founder and he used to set up all kinds of crazy reconstructions of battle situations for research purposes. Probably stopped short of using live blades though.
b
faking is dangerous, if someone sees your fake and attacks full- strength you'll end up being the only one hit, but it's usefull if you can pull it of.
If it seems barbaric and inelegant to you, it is likely that you fundamentally misunderstand the nature of Japanese swordsmanship. As Ben and Bleda comment (and you yourself affirm), kenjutsu -- as well as modern kendo -- concerns itself with totally committed strikes with the whole body ("sutemi"). "Faking," purely defending, or otherwise fooling around is what is considered inelegant, as well as cowardly. A samurai, especially in the early days, was expected to lay down his life in battle without a thought, especially when the odds were stacked against him. In a duel situation, such as what one finds in kendo today, the time for tactics is before any strike has been made -- sizing up the oppenent, looking for openings, encouraging him to attack first in order to evade and counter, etc. Any defence is supposed to automatically lead to a counter-attack: defend-ATTACK! rather than DEFEND-attack. This is where the "flow" you were speaking of comes into play.
In a historical duel between swordsmen of equal skill without armor, the likely outcome was death or critical injury for both because of the lethal weapon used (katana), the close range, and the commitment to the initiated cuts. In a duel between unequals, the more skilled would be more likely able to cut and evade the opponent's cut. We experience this in kendo often. For instance, A strikes kote, B strikes men, both valid strikes. But with real swords, B would be missing his hand and A would probably be dead.
Imagine a real fight with real swords: It´s a life and death situation. I think there was no room for elegance. (Although very skilled swordfights possibly looked beatiful and elegant in a certain way...) It was about hit or get hit.
And slashing someone with a katana surely is not beautiful to watch. You cut to kill or injure your opponent seriously.
greetings
meow
i dont practice kendo or kenjutsu in a dojo or with someone skilled in the art, but i do spar. me and some friends spar with bokkens, and ive acquired some experience. if musashis fights were only about 30 seconds, but that 30 seconds consisted of movment and not just sizing up the opponent, then that would be a long fight.
heres a situation that i would like you to answer what youd do. your opponent is standing in front of you, with his sword pointing at you. yes im aware that this is how all fights start, and there are many many other important factors, but you need not apporoach your opponent with the idea of makign him attack, because hes waiting for you to attack so he can counter attack. what would be wrong in trying to manipulate your opponents blade or to try and force it aside?
You've acquired experience in swinging sticks with your friends. You've acquired no knowledge of swordsmanship.
Nothing, we have many techniques to do just that. If you'd ever practiced any form of swordsmanship you'd know that.what would be wrong in trying to manipulate your opponents blade or to try and force it aside?
The best way to learn this stuff is to do it under the supervision of a teacher. Practicing with friends in the back yard doesn't cut it. Learning from books doesn't work either. Find a dojo, try this stuff out for a few years, then you have some background for your theories.
Neil Gendzwill
Saskatoon Kendo Club
That is also not true.
Mowing the lawn is BLOWING MY MIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks