Bouting With Your Teacher

[Old Warrior]

Every time I have the privilege of fighting with the Master, it's the same routine. He waits for me to make the first move and then counters. Many times I enter the bout determined not to "give in" and attack, but it's like I'm embarrassed not doing something, so I commit - and get hit. It seems like the unwritten rule that you are obligated to take the fight to the superior. I can feel the time ticking away and I think, "one is not suppossed to worry about winning (I will never beat the Master), just attack, attack and attack".

First - do I have this right? Second, I am not a kid any more and I am best served by conserving energy and picking my spots. The result is that my Kendo with the Master, is below what I am capable of doing because it is forced. Any good thoughts?

[crettin]

I've always tried and watch what he does, either while countering or attacking. You'll pick up on the subtle hints that everyone has. Also, be a little more patient and wait for the right moment, otherwise it's just wasted energy

[not-I]

[...] It seems like the unwritten rule that you are obligated to take the fight to the superior. I can feel the time ticking away and I think, "one is not suppossed to worry about winning (I will never beat the Master), just attack, attack and attack".

First - do I have this right? Second, I am not a kid any more and I am best served by conserving energy and picking my spots. The result is that my Kendo with the Master, is below what I am capable of doing because it is forced. Any good thoughts?

In my limited experience, and from what i gather from his comments, ji-geiko with sensei is a unique opportunity for personal instruction, even if nothing is said during or afterwards. The more often you do it, the more s/he remembers where you left off and it becomes like a continuing story where you soak up the teaching through experience. However, s/he can judge your weaknesses and help you to gradually overcome them only when you are continuously attacking -- not blindly, but continously. Like you said, the clock is ticking, and you want to learn the most from the precious time you have with him/her. Some of the openings s/he may leave for you may be obvious traps, but it seems to be "ungrateful" not to accept them - my sensei practically told me as much during one session. Of course it's tiring, and you get whacked to the point of discouragement, but part of the experience is also to gain more endurance and improve your fighting spirit - you might not know your limits, but with enough sparring, your sensei will. Also, the more you attack, the more tired you become, and the less you think - this gets rid of "forcing" anything besides the transcendence of your own limitations. In my opinion, if you're not exhausted after sparring with sensei, you're doing something wrong and, in a way, insulting him/her. If s/he doesn't deserve your best kendo and 100% effort, who does?

These are just the thoughts of a fellow beginner. It would be interesting to hear how the sensei in this forum see it from their perspective.

[LNGUYEN]

You will never win over your teacher, so why don't you just attack as much as possible. From there your teacher can show you your weakness, your improvement, and you will know what need to improve. When I bout with my Sensei, I don't think about losing or winning but hoping he will point out what should I improve through practice. At the end, he is still your teacher and whatever you are going to try on him is whatever he taught you. He knows everymove you make because that is what he teaches you.

[Neil Gendzwill]

[snip]
These are just the thoughts of a fellow beginner. It would be interesting to hear how the sensei in this forum see it from their perspective.

I agree with you 100%, very well said. Stop thinking about winning, and think more about improving.

[Old Warrior]

I fully understand that there is no winning or losing in practice - period. And, there will never be "winning" (for me) in an encounter with a highly skilled 7th Dan. However, there is succeeding in an attack and there is failing in the attempt. My inquiry is really a little more focused than my words explain.

My best kendo relies upon pressuring an opponent to make a mistake. I have zero ability to pressure the Master into doing anything. I wish I did, but I don't. Ask Karaken and Sminki, they both have experienced facing Master Seong. And, these two men are highly skilled (much better than me) and many grades above me. They are also many years younger than me. So, what am I supposed to do when my opponent: will not get close enough to allow my shoto to take him off center, can feel that my cut to the head is really a disguised waist cut or wrist cut, etc. etc.

It's hard to explain. I feel like a deer caught in the headlights. I have been taught all these skills, but I am facing the person who taught me. He watches me practice. He knows what I can and can't do. He knows how fast I'm "not". If I can't figure out what I need to do with my brain, while I'm sitting here relaxed - what chance do I have in our next encounter. And the strangest part is that the reason I, so much, want to do good - is to show that I have been paying attention and I am appreciative of the instruction. Only somebody else who does this could understand.

[Neil Gendzwill]

It's hard to explain. I feel like a deer caught in the headlights. I have been taught all these skills, but I am facing the person who taught me. [yadda yadda yadda]

You are not, as they say, a unique and special flower. Every one of us faces this exact same situation with our sensei. Go hard and trust him to guide your practice.

[hyuna]

Our club has many older beginners (by which I mean 40s, 50s) and so this is a problem I struggle with constantly from the other side of the fence.

The reality is that the older beginners simply cannot last through 1.5 or 2 hour even moderately difficult kendo practice, so it doesn't really do any good to say "don't worry about winning." Our older beginners are worried about making it to the end of the practice session in one piece, nevermind winning. That includes the ones who are in better shape.

The closest thing to a helpful comment I can think of right now is that there is a temptation to attack half-heartedly in order to conserve energy for later. That is counterproductive because attacks must be fully committed, so by holding something back for later, it actually wastes energy instead of saving it. Moreover, it means that I am obliged to make them practice even harder to make up for the sloppiness, so it is even harder on them.

Other than that I can say only the obvious: the older player has advantages over a younger player, and you must learn to use them. Take the fight to your opponent, but learn to do it in a way that utilizes your years of hard-won wisdom and insight instead of physicality. Unfortunately, I do not know how this can be taught and performed without first learning the physical method (which, again, is a training method largely inaccessible to the older player).

I would be very interested in insights people have to offer that relate to the specifics of practice with older beginners.

[Old Warrior]

"You are not, as they say, a unique and special flower."

Every flower is unique and special, if you take the time to examine it closely. But, no flower is perfect and therefore all are equal in their imperfection.

Whoahhhhhhhh, how's that for deep?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Very deep. I think the unique and special flower bit is from Full Metal Jacket, the retrieval from my internal pop culture database is incomplete

[Shazzanzzz]

I haven't been doing kendo for that long, but i think it's a waste time standing around in ji-geiko. Unless I'm going against someone outside of my club or dojo, i usually never wait for anything. If it's the sensei, I just seme and attack.
I mean, it's practice, it's ont a shiai. I fight totally differently in shiai.

[Dave Fowler]

I also think it matters on the level of the students as well. At lower level the students tend not to have a good grasp of semei (sp?) and are also typically lower in spirit, especially when facing a much higher ranked student or sensei. With that in mind sensei is usually expecting the lower ranked students to be attacking alot, which is why they might wait, to see if your spirit is strong. Also it allows them to see what your techinque is like. Finally part of fighting at higher levels is to learn when your opponent has made a mistake or opening and to take advantage of it, sometimes making the opponent make the mistake is part of it as well. This said the sensei could be showing you that you don't always have to attack blindly, but rather you need to wait and feel your opponent out. That of course does not imply that you aren't giving it your fullest, rather that you are attempting to use seme.


I don't know if that helped or not, but it's what I've seem to seen in the years as I've moved along.

[darren]

You are not, as they say, a unique and special flower.

I have finished my poem...

They are all perfect.

[JSchmidt]

It's hard to explain. I feel like a deer caught in the headlights. I have been taught all these skills, but I am facing the person who taught me. He watches me practice. He knows what I can and can't do. He knows how fast I'm "not". If I can't figure out what I need to do with my brain, while I'm sitting here relaxed - what chance do I have in our next encounter. And the strangest part is that the reason I, so much, want to do good - is to show that I have been paying attention and I am appreciative of the instruction. Only somebody else who does this could understand.

Oh, I think many of us here know what you mean...but I think you are trying *too* hard.(I go through this every week)...and even very experienced people go through this. I've seen (in Japan) 7th dans made look like rank beginners by 8th dans. (Was standing in line watching and my ego clicked in saying 'at least there's someone at my level', until I got to practice with him!)
Basicly, you're suffering from fear and doubt. (heh, I can't remember the 2 others of the '4 diseases'). Fear of failing in front of your teacher and doubt in your own ability...and we all suffer from that, to various degree.
What your teacher is most likely looking for, is commitment in the attacks. That when you go for a target, you *go*!. No half measures, but carry the attack through, regardless of it being succesful or not. To do that, you'll have to try to suppress your fear and doubt (otherwise it will always be a half-arsed attempt) and it's not very easy to do.
At that level, they're all pulling us around like puppets on string, so it's up to us to make sure, when they do pull those string, we give it everything possible and try to make it look as good as possible.

Jakob

[Hyaku]

Well there is no easy way around it. I did not come to Japan until I was 34. I was a yudansha before I came but would more or less discount that as Gaijin Kendo.

It was a new start, get up the top end and take the medicine. I dread to think what would happen if I didnt give 100% plus daily, at all times. No half hearted stuff. Our methods were simple. If you can actualy get something you might finish with Kiri kaeshi. If you dont within an allotted time it's Kakari Geiko till you "drop"

Eventually I started to take the occasional cut. The rest he gave me. I always remember coming home and we would talk. "I hit him today"! "Nah get lost you will 'never' hit him. He only gives you stuff". Then my freind saw it and said, "Damn you really did hit him". It comes slowly but surely because they really do come down to your level and drag you upwards.

I was not actually allowed to do Keiko with Sensei for around three months. My friend took around half a year. The prime objective "is" to get tired. That"s when you do some of your best work in a completly relaxed manner that pushes that subliminal message through that fighting is not derived from tension. Get on the teachers side and its a matter of wearing the young ones down to do that kind of work.

Go take the medicine then back down the dojo to practice with people of your own level and in time all the work will show through.

It was constantly in the back of my mind that, "Damn I might not get up to reasonable level cos I am too old". But older people have a tremendous advantage. I can drill young energetic high schoolers for hours and hours, weeks and weeks but that message never kicks in. They are young and strong and do very physical kendo. It's not how fast or how strong but "when" that counts. Hopefully your teacher will teach you the "when" bit.

Hope this helps.