Need some help!

**Serenity** · 31st May 2004, 05:39 AM

Hi everyone!

I have a very serious problem and I need your help (desperately). Today I was so beaten up that I almost started crying during jigeiko.

The thing is we have had a practise with our “neighbour” kendo club. Everything was going OK; I didn’t have any problems until the last round of jigeiko (with another newbi

; I do kendo since February); his men strikes where so powerful that I saw stars and heard the birds singing when I got hit.

His strikes where so painful that I still have a very bed headache. (His strikes where so powerful, that when I was hit, I lost the balance. I think he didn’t use the tenouchi, but he denied it.) Not to mention, what happened, when he had missed the men and he hit my neck. Once I got hit in my elbow (it’s turning black, blue, grey and read

).

The jigeiko lasted a whole century and there was no end; I was so badly beaten up I was physical and psychological at the end. I just wanted to throe the shiani away and run. But I didn’t. And now I lost all my motivation (now I know, why a lot of people leave kendo after getting the club bogu.)

Also I never head any complains (except some light headaces and some weals, but non of these can compare to what happened today) I know kendo is a very harsh sport…

And now I am asking myself if this is kendo?

I think it’s not. The power is not decisive (but the speed and the spirit are), am I right? Is the point of kendo to hit as much you can? I thought kendo was one of the spiritual martial arts, but see now that I did misunderstood the concept of kendo.

Serenity

P.S. After the practise I and the sempais had a little conversation; they only shaked their heads and they told me that this is not the right way. Tomorrow we will have a little conversation about today’s practise, lets see what my sensei says.

**Old Warrior** · 31st May 2004, 10:05 AM

One need not be a Kendo expert to reply to this one. First, if someone hits too hard more than once - stop and refuse to continue. Period, end of story, don't pass Go, don't wait to collect $200.

Now, if you want lessons on how to defend yourself, outside the rules of Kendo, wait till they reinstate PM's - I am sure board members will be more than pleased to tell you 20+ ways to hurt someone, "by accident".

If you are not smart enough to quit and walk away or if you refuse to bend the rules to defend yourself - take up knitting. Kendo builds self assertion and self confidence, but you have to be smart enough to know when you are at risk of imminent injury (by a jerk) and then you must be further, smart enough, to know if you can (or want) put your opponent in his/her place. I for one would "never quit", but I am 6' tall and over 200lbs and have absolutely no compunction of fending off a bully by striking do to the elbow, stepping on his foot as our bodies crash, or accidently missing a tsuki.

Nevertheless, someone once fractured my thumb, forcing me to stop and I wound up in the emergency room. The bottom line is to know yourself and be smart. You will get better (if you persist) and there will be another day. Lastly, "revenge is a dish that is best served cold".

**Kaoru** · 31st May 2004, 10:15 AM

Hi Serenity-san!

I'm sorry that happened to you. It really sounds like that one student needs to learn control. How he managed to hit your neck is amazing to me, since if he was doing a straight men-uchi, the cut would have come down from above, NOT the side. From what I understand(And I'm not in bogu just yet, so my word isn't worth a lot.). from reading here other's stories, a person should not be clubbing you like that so hard. It's rude to hit a person too hard, and yes, that sounded to me, like he was hitting too hard, to answer your question. I think he should listen to what you had to say. He's new too, so he has a LOT to learn, and control is one thing he obviosly needs much work on. I DO know from practicing with motodachi, the cut should be strong, but not so strong that you actually hurt them so much. Yes, you can get bruises, but I can't believe he hit you so hard on your elbow like that. What does he think he is doing?? Of course, one can miss and maybe hit the elbow I imagine, but to hit THAT hard, is unexcusable. Oh, and his men cuts ought not to be so hard they make a person lose their balance, I know. My sensei would stop anyone who did that.

Please don't be afraid to continue. Learn to show no emotion and that will unnerve him. Some people think it is having power to have nearly made you cry. Don't let them do that to you.

Ask your sempai and sensei for suggestions on how to deal with a person like that. I know it seems scary, but you can do it. I know it. You have such a positive, and sweet attitude so let that work for you, not against you. So, don't be afraid to attack head on.

What I don't understand is how he could deny it. He should be listening and taking comments as learning tools and be humble.

I also am not sure what you mean exactly... what is not the right way, that your sempai said? :comfused:

Anyway, I hope it all works out, I am sure it will. Don't worry.

Kaoru

**Andoru** · 31st May 2004, 11:18 AM

Serenity - when you face someone who cuts without tenouchi, lift up your men when a men cut is coming your way so that the shinai lands on the mengane. Are you much shorter than him by the way? It is also possible that the shinai landed on the back part of the men - make sure you that you don't look down and expose that part even more.

With kote cuts....it helps if you're wearing a wrist band. Doh - can't be helped.

Having said that, theoretically speaking, I reckon you should try oji waza (nuki/suriage/kaeshi) on him. If the cuts don't land, then you won't get hurt.

If that person swings hard (with or without tenouchi) - he's more easily committed and it'd be harder for him to respond to your actions. Don't be frightened - keep checking maai and posture and keep the seme up. Distract him and lure him to cut you and respond accordingly (suck him into your trap) - use his aggression against him (aikido way lol). Break his spirit down bit by bit. More importantly, maintain good kendo attitude. If you think you'll lose, then you have already lost - so think positive!

Don't lose motivation because of this. It'll get better over time - that's how we would naturally react to challenges and improve accordingly (just like muscles, which get stronger the more you challenge them). And like what Neil said, kendo spirit is all about coming to training again and again. So have a good rest and sleep - things will be better in the morning.

Hope that helps

**Masahiro** · 31st May 2004, 12:11 PM

Dear Serenity,

Kendo isn't entirely spiritual. The name of the art implies it is a path/way of the sword. The sword being a physical, dangerous object at that is as real as you. To do "good" kendo, you will need a "good" heart and constant practice and applications of your sword. I believe only then will you be able to attain a state of "serenity" in kendo. As your name suggests >>> "a state of serene". I imagine you are quite familiar with this concept of having an unaffected mind by disturbance. Please reflect/meditate on this concept.

**Neil Gendzwill** · 31st May 2004, 12:15 PM

Serenity, there is no excuse for that kind of abuse being inflicted on a new student. At this stage in your career, jigeiko should be about you getting to practice your techniques against a moving opponent, not about you being a target dummy. Please have a polite, private discussion with your sensei about your experience. Write back and let us know how it went.

In the meantime, please refuse jigeiko with that particular fellow. It is your right to refuse jigeiko with people whom you feel are abusive or harmful to your kendo.

**GBN** · 31st May 2004, 12:28 PM

Hi Serenity,

Sorry to hear about your bad experience. First off, don't take a day off. Make yourself show up no matter what next practice. Even if you just watch from the sidelines. Like Neil said, don't practice with this particular lame ass. It's a real shame that some people resort to bullying new students but that is reality. Just don't let the experience get you down. You may not have enough practical experience to fight fire with fire here so just let your sensei's take care of the issue.

Good luck,
Brian

**mystic_kendoka** · 31st May 2004, 04:30 PM

Is the point of kendo to hit as much you can? I thought kendo was one of the spiritual martial arts, but see now that I did misunderstood the concept of kendo.

kendo SHOULD be spiritual, but it can be physical and brutal too... the president of USA is supposed to be the most powerful and smartest man in the world... look at Bush... there is always one way out...

**mystic_kendoka** · 31st May 2004, 04:42 PM

the last sentence above doesn't make sense.. o well u get the jist of it dont you?

i had a similar situation last lesson, a 2-week-in-bogu-newbie and i had to to jigeiko, he was 20cm taller than me, so kept hitting the back of my men, with the lower part of his shinai, i told him u were supposed to hit with the daitotsubu onto the front of the men, so he had to go backwards when he would hit, he said he would hit me however he can... this pissed me off, but let him off since he IS a newb...

i just reckoned i wouldnt let him hit me, and i started to hit him, whenever i 'scored a point' and went forward for zanshin, he would taiatari/box me in the men gane, with such force that i fell backwards once, after the 2nd time he did this, again i asked him not to, he said, he would do anything to stop me from 'finishing' a point... this time i got really pissed...

what i did was, i went for men, he sticks out his hands, and i did a HUGE hiki kote (jogeburi style, hands at the tip of handle, all the way from the back to the floor...) to say the least, he stopped...

he knew he deserved it too, at the end of the lesson he apologized and avoided looking at me

**Kaoru** · 31st May 2004, 05:11 PM

Serenity-san,

I forgot to say I love your avatar! Kawaiiiii!!!

Wish I could draw like that. hehehe! I want one too... hehehe! Just need one with glasses on the little kendoka.

Well, I guess I just wasted space, but the PM's aren't back yet!

I just wanted to tell you how cute that is!

Well again, I hope you get this all worked out.

Kaoru

mateo · 31st May 2004, 06:41 PM

Fall six times, rise seven.

That is 'spiritual' advice. To develop one's spirit one must learn to face adversity. Not all spiritual matters are of the peace, love and flowers variety.

The kendoka you faced is that only in name and does not seem understand the spirit of the activity he is involved or the objectives. Avoid him without fearing him if possible in the future. If asked why you are not 'playing', make it clear that it is not because 'Johnny' is strong that you are not pairing up with him, it is because 'Johnny' is a jerk and life is too short. You should mention to your sensei why you will 'cold shoulder' this individual and why. See what he says.

I think there can still be a lesson to be learned despite the fact that it is being taught by neanderthal. No shortage of them around. We have to learn how to deal with them in budo. It is also good to feel 'real' pressure in fighting. Of course, it is more productive when one has more experience.

" I get knocked down but I get up again. Ain't nothing going to keep me down."
Wisdom of the ages but danceable!

**GBN** · 31st May 2004, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by mystic_kendoka

what i did was, i went for men, he sticks out his hands, and i did a HUGE hiki kote (jogeburi style, hands at the tip of handle, all the way from the back to the floor...) to say the least, he stopped...

Sad but true. Some people only get the point when you do something like this to them. You did warn him several times however, so in my mind you were justified. Unfortunately for Serenity and others out there, they may not be able to do something like this. In that case, it's better to let sensei sort things out. One annoying trait of bullies is that they will "play nice" with sensei and go back to bullying new people when they switch partners.

Brian

**tantadi** · 31st May 2004, 11:22 PM

Serenity: I wouldn't count on sensei/sempai to sort out those things. Some are very aware of bullies and deal with them, but not all. But it is your rightful choice to refuse to train with someone if they are bullying you. If they can't behave, don't interact with them.

**not-I** · 31st May 2004, 11:46 PM

Serenity,

There is always at least one ji-geiko session after getting into bogu that will raise some doubt in your mind about kendo. Don't despair, keep practicing. Remember that this guy is a beginner too. Since you talked to your sensei, rest assured that the problem will get ironed out. Seniors do their best to fix the heavy hitters before they get into bogu, but sometimes they slip through. Whether he's a bully, or just someone who just doesn't know any better, i'm sure he will get taught some empathy when he has ji-geiko with a sempai next time.
As a beginner, if you have a choice, always choose seniors for ji-geiko. They have a better understanding of kendo and will push to do your best without being brutal.
As was mentioned, spiritual practice in kendo is firstly about developing a strong spirit to overcome fear, doubt, surprise and confusion. Follow the advice of everyone in this thread, and don't give up.