Zen and Kendo

[Daniel]

Hello,

I was interested in Zen long before starting Kendo last January. I have tried to apply some concepts by myself to the daily practice. I am also an old soldier, so I can recognize which parts of the training are truly needed per-se and which ones are repetition to build muscle-memory and mind-less reaction.

Yet, I am still hoping to find at some point some more chances to discuss the connection of Zen and Kendo. I am afraid that some of the younger newbies see it as a "kickass with a sword" sport-thing, and the older students are much more senior than me.

I realize that there is MUCH more than the sport part, I just wonder at what point it will surface. In fact, it concerns me more than any promotion or permission to finally get a Bogu.

Any guidance out there?

Thanks!

Daniel

[mystic_kendoka]

most kendo experts with 50 years exp. say they started real kendo after 30 years..

[Daniel]

Touche'... still, I was not necessarily looking for instant Satori (just add Kendo) but a general idea of where "It" resides...
After re-reading Herrigel (yet again) I have a general idea of what I am looking for, except that I know I should not look, and "it" will surface.
I DID have One (actually two) experiences where I felt that I was just a conduct, and IT hit the Men. Enough to let me know "it" is floating around there, just waiting until I stop pretending not to be looking for it....
It would be encouraging though to be able to discuss it with others. Alas, most appear more interested in a faster Men, or the loudest Kiai.
I guess once I learn not to seek that knowledge, and I become truly mind-less "it" will drop by and say hello more often.
I wonder if one can really achieve kikentaichi without some sort of purposeful purposlessness....

but enough babbling...

Thanks for the reply

Daniel

[Hotei]

Wow. . . A post I actually fit into.

I've been a (Rinzai) Zen practitioner for about 26 years now. Zen is amazingly easy to understand, once you stop trying to "understand" it. I say that with reservation as that comment is the single most powerful thing you can say to have 50 people tell you how they became "Enlightened".

Zen has nothing to do with shaving your head, giving up your belongings, or sitting in seiza. Zen is something that you, quite literally, practice with every breath.

Zen is much like Kendo, in that it's not the same thing to any two people. Can you imagine if everyone fought the same way? Nobody would ever win. It's the same thing with any spiritual path; pick what works for you and keep it; toss the rest.

Unfortunatley, the only thing I'd be able to do in a post like this would be confuse you, so I'll give you a short list of small books that will sort of wake you up to what Zen actually is. . . Or isn't.

Any of these books will be available in a better library, or you can buy them, but most folks find it better to read them first and then buy the ones they love.

"Zen Speaks; Shouts of Nothingness" I've probably given more copies of this wonderful little book to friends and foes than would be comfortable for me to remember. The artist is actually a cartoonist in China (the ancestral home fo Zen), while the translator is an American. The book is comprised of small, bite-sized zen parables in cartoon form; they ran in Japanese and Chinese newspapers several years ago. I cannot speak highly enough of the power and value of this "cartoon" book.

(Others in the series include Zhuangzi Speaks, The Tao Speaks : Lao-Tzu's Whispers of Wisdom, Sunzi Speaks : The Art of War, Wisdom of the Zen Masters, and Confucius Speaks : Words to Live By)

Anything by Thich Nhat Hanh will be very simple to understand. Hanh is a Vietnamese Zen priest with an unbelievable past. He's been nominated for the Nobel prize just about every year he's been eligible for it.

Anything by Charlotte Joko Beck with my fave being "Nothing Special: Living Zen" Joko (It's a title) Beck is a Zen Teacher, but she doesn't fall into any of the traditional categories. She is one of the quietest and most powerful speakers you'll ever have the pleasure of hearing. You just have to read her to understand why.

And there I'll stop. Grab a couple of these, or pay the postage and I'll send you mine, a couple at a time. I used to own a spiritual library in my town, and Have amassed quite a few worthy titles. You can email me at one@mindbodyspirit.us if you would like to "check a few out".

Good luck; you're about to start learning about yourself in ways you cannot imagine. Some things will be obvious. Some things will take a couple of years and maybe a boot to the head for you to realize.

[ben]

Hi guys,

Yes, a good thread title. But in the end, what is there to say really? I am also interested in Zen. My teacher is Soto-zen of the same lineage as Shunryu Suzuki roshi, so there might be some differences in outlook btw Hotei and me.

First of all, for a beginner in either Zen or kendo, the most important thing is practice. Dogen zenji said that practice doesn't lead to enlightenment, it *is* enlightenment (shusho itto - practice and attainment are one). Hence the mistakes you are making, the constant self-talk, the frustration: this is all, also, "it". Buddha-nature is inherent, not conditional.

I'd disagree with you slightly Hotei, I'd say Zen is very much to do with sitting. If you want to know kendo, you go to a dojo and train. If you want to know Zen, you go to a zendo and train as well. Zen training is sitting in zazen. This is, as I said, my Soto bias (no koan, just sitting).

I used to devour books on zen and kendo. I still keep an eye out for them. Recently I found one with a doozy of a title-- "Samadhi: Zen, swordsmanship and psychotherapy" by Mike Sayama. Sayama was a student of Omori Sogen in Hawaii and the book seemed like it was going to be right up my alley. Well it did have a lot of interesting stuff about psychotherapy. It also had some good drawings showing how to sit in zazen. But what I was looking for about zen and swordsmanship wasn't there.

I did ask my Zen teacher once about how I should try and integrate my kendo training into my Zen training. Stupidly I opened my mouth and said "Osho-san, they say kendo is called 'zen in action'". To which he matter of factly replied, "Everything that is moving is Zen in action." Um, I knew that... :$ So how should I try to integrate the two? "Just train hard, eat well and get enough sleep."

Having said all that, I'm still looking forward to the discussion. I'm sure not-I will contribute if he's lurking.

b

[Hotei]

I'd disagree with you slightly Hotei, I'd say Zen is very much to do with sitting. If you want to know kendo, you go to a dojo and train. If you want to know Zen, you go to a zendo and train as well. Zen training is sitting in zazen. This is, as I said, my Soto bias (no koan, just sitting).

I don't think you've disagreed at all, and you make a very valid point, though in my experience, I don't know anyone that sits zazen in seiza. I can handle half lotus forever, but seiza drives me nuts. (One of the ladies from my temple had me over so that she could perform the tea ceremony in honor of Rohatsu, and ended up giving me a little bench so I could sit still )

I do think it's worth point out that, while zazen is the most important tool to reach your goal, it does not preclude other tools. You don't have to drive a car to get to the next town, but it sure does make the trip easier.

The only real (tangible) difference in our experience would likely be exactly what you pointed out in regard to koan study. I sit zazen 45 minutes every morning, and have, in the past, studied many koans. I would hazard to say that your experience is similar, minus the koans? I've read numerous articles and books on Dogen Zenji, and he was more of a fan of parable over koan to make a point. I can really appreciate that. I prefer parables, myself.

Direct Suzuki lineage? That's saying quite a lot about your zendo. Have you read any of the books I listed? Would you recommend any that I (we) might read to gain a better knowledge of Soto? I've read Masunaga's "Primer", but it was a little dry for me. My Dharma Teacher says it just didn't have enough pictures.

Thanks for your point of view; I was hoping that someone else would chime in.

<Gassho>


p.s. I love your avatar.

[Daniel]

Speaking about which, how do you add an Avatar(a) different than the ones offered by the forums (fora)

Daniel

[ben]

Hotei,
<gassho>
I also prefer half-lotus or Burmese style if I'm a little stiff on a cold morning. Half-lotus took me about three years to get to! Seiza OTOH I find quite easy My only goal in zen is to sit in full-lotus without pain. One day...

Re: books. I have read Thich Nhat Hanh and highly recommend him. As you say, he is a towering figure. He is also good for non-Buddhists as he is strong on inter-faith dialogue. The others I don't know but the cartoons especially sound good!

For insight into the flavour of Soto, Suzuki Shunryu roshi's books "Zen Mind Beginner's Mind" and "Not Always So" are great. You may or may not find him inspirational on a first read. His books come into their own however when you find yourself "stuck" in your own practice. His turn-of-phrase and use of metaphor wouldn't always make sense to someone not practicing I don't think.

Dogen's "Shobogenzo" is the main work of the Soto canon. Much more interesting than the "Primer" which you mention, which I also find quite dull and proscriptive. Look out for his essay entitled "Uji (Being-time)". It'll fuck with your head. In a good way.

BTW have you read either of Brian Victoria's books? "Zen at War" and "Zen War Stories" are essential for anyone interested in Zen (I'm sounding like an amazon.com review!). Many disciples, both Japanese and Westerners, have had to do some serious re-evaluations of their beloved roshi since finding out he was involved in pre-War militarist (and even anti-Semitic!) propaganda. It is sobering to realise that more of the Zen popularisers in the West than not have such dark sides when it comes to association with either German or Japanese fascism. "Ken zen itchi" had a whole different slant during WWII...

b

PS - go to "edit avatar" and you'll find a little box with a "browse" option that lets you upload an image from your hard drive. Must be 50x50pixels or less.

[Zato Ichi]

I started kendo with the idea of repeated putting myself through hard training to reach some form of buddhist enlightenment.

However, I have changed dojos due to various moves. In my current dojo the teacher says that this other part will come on its own. Althought I agree with this I think the teacher needs to set the correct attitude, and I am not sure he knows how.

My (serious) question is: is it possible to reach some form of buddhist enlightenment through kendo or should I enrol in the nearest zen dojo?

What stops me at the moment is that I have no empathtic connection to zen, but I do to kendo. With your collected years of experience, your advice would be appreciated.
Thanks

[Zato Ichi]

thread continued...

What I am trying to say is: am I on the right path, and who can tell me?

[nonamehandle]

I started kendo with the idea of repeated putting myself through hard training to reach some form of buddhist enlightenment.

Thanks

just wondering,

what do you plan to do once you reach enlightenment?

[Zato Ichi]

just wondering,

what do you plan to do once you reach enlightenment?

Following the example of tesshu, I intend to get very drunk.

[ben]

thread continued...

What I am trying to say is: am I on the right path, and who can tell me?

No-one can.

b

[nonamehandle]

thread continued...

What I am trying to say is: am I on the right path, and who can tell me?

Following the example of tesshu, I intend to get very drunk.

then, it is quite obvious where your path should lead to, no need to ask us whether you are on the right path or not?

[not-I]

I'm sure not-I will contribute if he's lurking.

Yup, i've been lurking. I just wanted to see what others had to say before immediately jumping in like i usually do. This is a topic i've been dealing with for a while and i'll try to contribute something after i get back from the zendo tonight.

gasshô