Basic Men Uchi

[Kote-Men]

Something very disappointing and annoying happened to me a while back..... I was in keiko scoring Men after Men after Men but I was never awarded any points at all! I had ki-ken-tai-ichi as far as I knew, but nothing happened? We went into encho and he scored a kote on me and won.. I don't understand, I think I hit him on Men at least 4 times...

After this experience my kendo has been, well, different. My mindset has been somewhat distorted and I'm beginning to question my basics...

When you hit men your right foot comes down at the same time. At this position does your left foot stay back or does it come up with the right foot at the moment you make contact?

When doing footwork the right foot and left foot move almost at the same time..

I have been watching other members of my dojo in shiai and it half of them hit men with their right foor down and left still back, and the other half with right foot down but left foot moving forward...

What is correct?

[Nanbanjin]

Something very disappointing and annoying happened to me a while back..... I was in keiko scoring Men after Men after Men but I was never awarded any points at all! I had ki-ken-tai-ichi as far as I knew, but nothing happened? We went into encho and he scored a kote on me and won.. I don't understand, I think I hit him on Men at least 4 times...

After this experience my kendo has been, well, different. My mindset has been somewhat distorted and I'm beginning to question my basics...

When you hit men your right foot comes down at the same time. At this position does your left foot stay back or does it come up with the right foot at the moment you make contact?

When doing footwork the right foot and left foot move almost at the same time..

I have been watching other members of my dojo in shiai and it half of them hit men with their right foor down and left still back, and the other half with right foot down but left foot moving forward...

What is correct?

Your footwork should be based on "nami-ashi". Nami-ashi is simply moving forward as you would when working. Even if your walking footwork isn't suited to kendo, think about this; moving forward in kendo should be the same as moving forward when walking. I find this concept overwhelming.
To answer your question directly, your back foot should start coming up as soon as your right foot hits the ground. To look at it probably looks more like the right foot is down and the left foot is moving forward. The people who are hitting and still have their left feet back are probably letting their hips twist to the left too much.
Please take this as a suggestion only. I'm not a kendo expert.
What looks better?

[taganahan]

i've been hitting men constantly during the first months of my bogu experience. sensei told me that i was really predictable. this opened my mind up and changed my style a bit.

right foot moving and left foot left at the back: this is a way of reaching out for the target. something like lunging.


~taganahan

[Mizukaze]

What about Zanshin?

[Kirin]

Do you have video of your match?
It is always good idea to video shai for yourself and dojo mates.

This topic has been discussed on other threads, at least 2 or 3 judges did not recognize your 'hit' as a score.

We did not see you match, so it is best to ask your sensei or senpai.

[Hai_hai]

[size=3]Something very disappointing and annoying happened to me a while back..... I was in keiko scoring Men after Men after Men...

You were scoring or you thought you were scoring?
Since it was keiko, you could ask why you didn't get a point? Mmm, you probably suck. That's all.

[Kage Ki Ken]

The moment your Shinai strikes the men your right foot should hit the ground. you want to bring your left foot up quickly so you can turn the action into a flowing movement. That way you can carry through, and continue with zanshin.

[Kingofmyrrh]

If you watch most accomplished people closely (realistically, you need photography for this) then you`ll see that in fact people do NOT strike men and stamp with the right foot at the same time. The strike always comes slightly earlier, although when watched at normal speed it`s almost imperceptible. The photograph here:
http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/index2.htm
is a rather extreme example, but I think you can see that it`s a firm strike. I don`t have any pictures to hand, but every top-level person I`ve ever seen does it the same way. Well, there are some older people who have their own style, but pretty much anyone under the age of 50 is like the photo. However, I don`t think it`s profitable to try and copy this. Just think of hand and foot landing at the same time, and with experience things will sort themselves out.
Anyway, you can probably also guess from the photo that her left leg is still firmly planted to the floor. If you lift your left leg before you actually hit the target, then I tend to find that your body jumps upwards slightly, which will decrease the power of the blow and leave you unbalanced. So, as far as I`m concerned, the left leg stays back until you`ve hit. As soon, as you`ve hit, draw the left leg back up very quickly.
However, if you consider the fact that experienced people hit before stamping, it is possible to fit the start of the left-leg-drawing-in motion before you actually stamp, while still keeping to the `left leg stays back until you`ve hit` rule. For example:

start lunge -> strike with hand -> start drawing in left foot -> stamp with right -> finish drawing in left foot

However, this is not something that I think you should try to do. Just stick to the basic:

start lunge -> hit and stamp with right foot at same time -> quickly draw up left leg

[Kingofmyrrh]

http://jns.ixla.jp/users/kendoshashin240/mokuji_001.htm

These are some leftover photos by Emiko Ikeda, photographer for kendo nihon and all round nice person.
If you look at the pages (just guess randomly if japanese is a problem) you should find plenty of examples of what I`m talking about. IBM and Kodansha are particularly obvious.

[Nanbanjin]

If you watch most accomplished people closely (realistically, you need photography for this) then you`ll see that in fact people do NOT strike men and stamp with the right foot at the same time. The strike always comes slightly earlier, although when watched at normal speed it`s almost imperceptible. The photograph here:
http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/index2.htm
is a rather extreme example, but I think you can see that it`s a firm strike. I don`t have any pictures to hand, but every top-level person I`ve ever seen does it the same way. Well, there are some older people who have their own style, but pretty much anyone under the age of 50 is like the photo. However, I don`t think it`s profitable to try and copy this. Just think of hand and foot landing at the same time, and with experience things will sort themselves out.
Anyway, you can probably also guess from the photo that her left leg is still firmly planted to the floor. If you lift your left leg before you actually hit the target, then I tend to find that your body jumps upwards slightly, which will decrease the power of the blow and leave you unbalanced. So, as far as I`m concerned, the left leg stays back until you`ve hit. As soon, as you`ve hit, draw the left leg back up very quickly.
However, if you consider the fact that experienced people hit before stamping, it is possible to fit the start of the left-leg-drawing-in motion before you actually stamp, while still keeping to the `left leg stays back until you`ve hit` rule. For example:

start lunge -> strike with hand -> start drawing in left foot -> stamp with right -> finish drawing in left foot

However, this is not something that I think you should try to do. Just stick to the basic:

start lunge -> hit and stamp with right foot at same time -> quickly draw up left leg

Funny that you dragged that picture up.
One of my first posts on Ichinikai was on this very topic.

http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/b...130859375.html

Excuse my odd use of Japanese....

[Andoru]

I wonder if this phenomena is at least partially caused by not pushing from the hips sufficiently. I am no expert of course.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Bizzarely, that was also one of the first threads that I ever read there, which is why that photo was the first one to come to mind... it`s a small world!

[Nanbanjin]

Bizzarely, that was also one of the first threads that I ever read there, which is why that photo was the first one to come to mind... it`s a small world!

If you don't mind my asking, do you have a handle on Ichinikai and if so what is it?

[Nanbanjin]

Bizzarely, that was also one of the first threads that I ever read there, which is why that photo was the first one to come to mind... it`s a small world!

Very rough and very quick translation of the main bit of the thread of the post mentioned above. Hope it is useful to someone.

In regards to kikentainoitchi, I have been taught that for a tatotsu to be awarded the following elements need to be present in unison.

* Ki : Kiai, sufficient spirit etc.
* Ken : The monouchi of the shinai needs to contact the datotsubui.
* Tai : Fumikomi-ashi etc.

So the following all needs to come together at the same time for ippon to be awarded.
However, if you look at the men-uchi performed at the All Japan Championships it seems that fumikomi-ashi occurs after the point of impact of the datotsu. Is this still considered correct Kikentainoitchi.
For example, please refer to the following image from this site's home page.

http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/index2.htm

In this case Masuo-san is performing a beautiful men-uchi. However if you look closely the shinai is in full contact with the opponents men, but the fumi-komi has not landed yet.
The shinai is actually flexing, but the right foot is still several centimetres from the floor.

I am not intending to criticise Masuo-san's men-uchi, but I just wanted to know whether this type of men-uchi is considered to be correct in terms of kikentainoitchi.

To be considered yuhkoh-datotsu you need to "have sufficient spirit, have correct posture, hit the correct target with the correct datotsu-bu and with the correct hasuji and you must also maintain zanshin".
For experienced players the datotsu usually occurs slightly before the fumikomi. For beginners there is a tendancy to hit without moving forward, pulling the hips and stepping before the cut, so we instruct to have the datotsu occurring at the same time as the fumikomi lands. Masao-san is putting her hips into it and hitting with correct posture, so I think her men is a great example of kikentainoitchi.

So to a point to be awarded the timing of the landing of the foot and the timing of the landing of the datotsu don't have to be exactly the same.

To change the question a little, is it better kendo to have the foot land at the same time as the datotsu?

We are often told about kikentainoitchi, but are we taught to have the foot land at the same time as the strike is made simply to correct the form of beginners, or is that actually better kendo?

In regards to the picture of Masao-san's men cut, if you actually saw the cut in action the landing of the foot and the men datotsu would seem to occur at the same time. The time the point where the photo was taken to the time when the foot reached the floor would have been a moment of hundredths of seconds. Looking at the picture in freeze frame is a bit misleading.
I guess the timing of the cut is:
"badan"
| |______ The sound of the foot landing
|________ The sound of the shinai striking
I think it is safe to say that the cut and foot stamp are occur at the same time.

The sound as described should not be "bandan", as opposed to the correct "batan". If the datotsu is occuring say 0.5 seconds before the fumikomi then you couldn't really call it kikentainoitchi.

I think it is impossible to say whether having the timing precisely the same is better or not is impossible to say. More important is whether you are kicking (pressing) with the left foot and projecting your body enough and whether your hips have moved forward, and also whether your posture at the time of the datotsu is correct.

If your right foot hits the ground before the datotsu then the flow of power of floor -> left leg -> body -> arms -> shinai and this will excape at the point wheter the right foot lands. No power will be transferred to the shinai and you won't be able to cut effectively. Then you will tend to hit with your arse (translator's note: sorry for the foul language Alex) sticking out at the point of impact of the datotsu and your posture will be incorrect.

More importantly you should make sure that you can hit without compromising your posture, with fumikomi at the same time or a little later than the datotsu, but with power held in the tanden and with the left foot pushing down on the ground firmly and the hips moving forward. In this regard kendo can be difficult for people with weak legs and waists, and expecially for people who start kendo as adults.

I almost forgot to add that when your right foot lands your right knee is bent, but from the point of impact of the foot use the muscle of your right thigh to straighten your knee and pull your body up. Your body will come up, so the left leg will be pulled from behind at the same time. The quicker you can straighten your knee the quicker the pull-up (hiki-tsuke) of your left leg will become. The point I am trying to make is that it is difficult to pull your left leg up immediately after the datotsu has been made.

I think that the last little bit goes some way to answering this thread's original question.

An interesting subnote is that my original assumption that kikentainoitchi is directly linked to yuhkoh datotsu was mistaken. The rules pertaining to yuhkoh datotsu don't actually mention kikentainoitchi at all. However, the term kikentainoitchi could perhaps be used to encompass as a whole the rules as they are written.

[Kingofmyrrh]

No, I must confess that I`ve never posted. There have been times when I`ve wanted to, but a search always revealed that a multitude of high school kids had got there first.
Good work on the translation, btw. I can`t really think of anything that needs to be added after that :-)