Kasumi

[Neil Gendzwill]

I play hidari-jodan from time to time, and several of my dojo-mates will take kasumi (the high version) against it. Question for those of you who face this or any of the experienced judges out there - is the left kote a valid target for me? It's usually around mune height, and it's far and away the easiest thing to hit. My sensei thought it was valid but he wasn't completely sure.

[Kirin]

Neil sensei

Though I am not experienced in kendo or in judge,
I know Yamada sensei (Kumamoto) lost a point to Chiba sensei (Tokyo) on hidari-gote in All Japan Championships good 20yrs ago.

Previous year, Yamada (kasumi) won againt Chiba (hidai-jodan).
First was ura-suriage-men, and second point was hidari-kote - tsuki.... beautiful tsuki eventhough from kasumi (left grip way to your right)

Watching some kasumi vs jodan video, jodan does not use katate-waza as often as against seigan. Jodan usese more morote ni-dan waza such as migi-kote to men/gyaku-do. I guess kasumi is such a defensive kamae, jodan must go for 'go no sen'.

[satoshi]

I think the interpretation is that "kasumi" is a modified form of "chudan" but no longer "chudan", and therefore both kote are valid targets. However I haven't seen an official written guideline that says "kasumi" is not "chudan".

I personally do not think that scoring left kote from jodan is easy. If simply hit from above the kote should not score (although it is often given), and I think it is difficult to cut the correct target of a left kote with the correct angle.

[Nishi]

I believe the kote is valid (as you say) when it is above the mune (age-kote) It is the judges call as far as im concerned. Besides 'age-kote' ive never seen anything in the rules to support or suggest otherwise.

However I cant see many judges disputing it if it was a pearl of a kote!

[moocow65]

I play hidari-jodan from time to time, and several of my dojo-mates will take kasumi (the high version) against it. Question for those of you who face this or any of the experienced judges out there - is the left kote a valid target for me? It's usually around mune height, and it's far and away the easiest thing to hit. My sensei thought it was valid but he wasn't completely sure.

I scored a point from nito, which is pretty much the same as hidari-jodan.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Yeah, I don't think the kamae you are attacking from matters so much as the kamae the aite is in. Still waiting for Marsten-sensei to weigh in here, but if you got one it's probably legal target.

[Curtis]

Yeah, I don't think the kamae you are attacking from matters so much as the kamae the aite is in. Still waiting for Marsten-sensei to weigh in here, but if you got one it's probably legal target.

Which one? Me or my bubba?

I just spent several minutes looking through the rule book (1996 ed.) and it only states that right and left kote are targets at jodan.

However I know that I either read and/or have been told at seminars that left kote is a target when it rises above the pit of the stomach. This description makes me believe that I read it somewhere. The 2000 ed. of the rulebook looked unchanged to me so I will be darned if I can remember where I ran across this. I can tell you that I judge this way. Once it raises to this height I no longer consider it chudan.

[Paburo]

i've also heard from higher ranks that both kote are datotsu if they are above the mune. whether aite is on kamae, blocking, or rising to attack.

[JSchmidt]

i've also heard from higher ranks that both kote are datotsu if they are above the mune. whether aite is on kamae, blocking, or rising to attack.

Hmm?..pretty certain that transitions doesnt make the left kote a valid target...otherwise I'm certain we would be taught debana-kote against both sides

Jakob

[satoshi]

I did a bit of internet search. It's a bit long but I hope it contributes to the discussion.

The latest AJKF regulation (ed. 2002) states that “The target area for kote shall be the right kote (the left kote if the opponent holds the shinai with left hand forward) for chudan-no-kamae, and both the right and left kote for other kamae.”

http://www.kendo.or.jp/japanese/rule/saisoku.html

The question is what is included in "other kamae".
According to another guideline written for the Kokutai (National Athletic), “The target for kote is the right kote. However, left kote is also a yukoda when the opponent is in chudan-no-kamae with left hand forward, jyodan-no-kamae, hasso-no-kamae, waki-gamae, nito-no-kamae, age-gote, and other variant of chudan.”

http://sun1.pref.toyama.jp/sections/...debook/p40.pdf

I think "chudan-no-kamae with left hand forward, jyodan-no-kamae, hasso-no-kamae, waki-gamae, nito-no-kamae" are straightforward. The question is what kind of situation is included in "age-gote, and other variant of chudan".

Age-gote is defined as “a situation when the left kote is positioned higher than the solar plexus but not during a strike.”

http://www.page.sannet.ne.jp/n-onihe...iki/yougo2.htm

According to one interpretation, "age-gote" includes a situation when the opponent avoids by sticking up his/her left fist, or when the opponent cuts hiki-men from tsuba-zeriai position and the left hand is held up.

The same person comments that "variant of chudan" includes hira-seigan and kasumi-no-kamae.

http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/b...228515625.html

So my understanding is that both right and left kote are targets when the opponent is in kasumi-no-kamae. Also my feeling is that in Japan increasingly referees are encouraged to accept left kote as a valid strike against an opponent who defends by lifting his/her left kote. But I do not think it is a widely accepted interpretation to consider left kote as a valid target, when a person lifts the hand above the solar plexus as part of the cutting movement. I think it would make it too easy to allow de-gote to the left side in shiai.

Having said all this, this is about shiai refereeing. Kendo is not only about shiai, and if somebody cuts my left kote perfectly during keiko I would say "thank you that was a good cut" even if it was at chudan-no-kamae.

[D'Artagnan]

Please excuse my ignorance, but could somebody inform me what 'kasumi-no-kamae' is please? Is it similar to hira-seigan??

[Nanbanjin]

Please excuse my ignorance, but could somebody inform me what 'kasumi-no-kamae' is please? Is it similar to hira-seigan??

I might be wrong, but I am fairly sure that "hira-seigan" should be "hei-seigan".
The characters are 平青眼 . 平 can be read "hira" or "hei".

"Kasumi-no-kamae" is where you point the kensen at your opponent's left fist, but with the left hand pushed over to the right, and with the palm of the left hand facing upwards. Like hei/hira-seigan, kasumi-no-kamae is used against jodan.

[satoshi]

I might be wrong, but I am fairly sure that "hira-seigan" should be "hei-seigan".
The characters are 平青眼 . 平 can be read "hira" or "hei".

"Kasumi-no-kamae" is where you point the kensen at your opponent's left fist, but with the left hand pushed over to the right, and with the palm of the left hand facing upwards. Like hei/hira-seigan, kasumi-no-kamae is used against jodan.

Personally I pronounce it hira-seigan and I have never heard it called hei-seigan. I don’t know if this is a regional difference (I practiced in Tokyo).

There are various forms of kasumi-no-kamae. The kasumi-no-kamae I know positions the tip of the sword/ shinai to the jodan’s RIGHT kote so that your own right hand comes in the centre. The position of the left hand is higher than a normal chudan.

[D'Artagnan]

Thank you both,

much appreciated!

[Nanbanjin]

Personally I pronounce it hira-seigan and I have never heard it called hei-seigan. I don’t know if this is a regional difference (I practiced in Tokyo).

There are various forms of kasumi-no-kamae. The kasumi-no-kamae I know positions the tip of the sword/ shinai to the jodan’s RIGHT kote so that your own right hand comes in the centre. The position of the left hand is higher than a normal chudan.

Thanks for the correction.
I learn too much of this stuff from Ichinikai. I haven't lived in Japan for eight years and now realise that I have assumed that the way I have read some terms to be correct. A simple search of the internet proves me entirely wrong.
And yes RIGHT kote, not left.