8th dan

[Will]

Anyways, back to the topic...

The reason why there isn't any hachidans that are westerners is because of exposure. Let's look at the situation:

To be hachidan, you had to be at least 45...

Now, ideally, you'd get it at 45, but most people would fail with the .02% pass rate.

Let's put you in America because that's where I'm from. Kendo is weaker there than in Japan, where most Japanese might get there hachidan in their 50s or so, you might get it in your sixties...So let's say you got it when you're 65 or so.

2002-65=1937. So you would have to have been born in 1937. Let's add 7 years to it for a ripe starting age. 1944. Oh look, 1944, not many people did kendo in America in 1944...I wonder why...(sarcasm)

Ok, so let's say you were really talented and you started AFTER world war two... I don't think your parents who fought in the war would really aprove.

So basically there aren't any hachidan westerners is because they weren't expose to kendo at a young enough age due to factors out of their control.

But that just might be in America.

[wutian]

why were on the subject of people admitting mistakes lets look at those who invaded japan in the 1800's, amdercans and british. we destroyed the shogunate and helped the destructive majie era in to play, from there japan went downhill after that and all this crap happened. we were better to leave them be. thats my humble opinion it all comes back to american profit, always does. and that is a shame

[AlexM]

Wutian,

You do realise that you just called the most rapid modernisation of any country in the history of mankind (the Meiji restoration of the late 19th century as it were) as the beginning of a "downhill" for Japan.

You realise that without this "destructive Meiji" you would not be even talking about kendo because Japan would still be closed off to most of the world (no Meiji = no kendo abroad).

Hamish, Alex or others can correct me but I believe contemporary kendo (this thing which you want to practice) was developed only after Meiji, or even later (i.e. after it became illegal to carry a sword in public, after the class system was officially abolished, after the feudal era, after bushido basically died in its "Musashi" form, etc.).

Was Japan better off before opening up? I personaly wouldn't want to live during the "samurai" era, but then I'm not Japanese.

Sorry for the long off topic post. I just couldn't help myself.

[wutian]

oh well my piont was i think japan would have developed in its own way. Are they better off for our influince? I dont thinks so but we certianly are.

[roar]

There is a well known kendo-teacher in Europe who got his shodan at 40, and now is 7.dan, trying for hachidan. You do not have to start with kirikaeshi in kindergarten do have a serious kendo-career, and I guess you can do well in iaido as well without having experience from Manchuria.
I have heard that it is more a political issue than a pure kendo-proficiency matter if a non-Japanese could get hachidan. Time will show, as there are several who will try in the close future. If the statistic apply that only 1 out of 500 will pass, it could take some time though.

[GMason]

With Regards to 8th Dan, there are currently *(As far as I know no 8th Dan European's)

The first European to take 8th Dan was John Howell the current chairman of the BKA, unfortunatley he was not part of the 0.02% who passed.

He has quite a Kendo Career behind him John Howell Kendo Career

With regards to the National Geographic Documentary "Kendo's most grueling challenge" it's a great program but the Kendo coverage is frustrating. They show you a bit and then cut away. They show you a bit more and then super impose cherry blossom. Well you know what I mean.

[reicheru]

Out of two million fencers in Japan there are only 400 at least awarded with 8th dan certificate sice World War II.

Does anyone know if there's a list (in Japanese or Romaji) of those 400-ish 8-dans?

Rachel

[Confound]

Wutian, you are so lucky we don't live in an anime universe, because I would have pulled out a massive hammer and bonked you on the head! First of all, it's 'Meiji', not 'majie' as in 'majie de?' ('are you serious' in school girl slang, a shortened form of majime for serious or devoted).

As for the Meiji, I am of a divided mind on the subject. On the one hand, I think it would have been foolish for Japan to remain closed to the rest of the world, however, this country is still overtly, no, flagrantly would be the best word, isolationist.

I honestly doubt the process of industrialism would have begun in Japan on its own, for several reasons. Firstly, the tradition of scientific explanation, exploration and invention does not exist here. That remarkable movement called 'The Enlightenment' (which included such luminaries as Voltaire, Rousseau, Hume, etc etc) did not reach Asia. Incidentally, the high Renaissance rediscovery of Muslim and Greek knowledge did not even make a ripple in Far Eastern Asia. As for those of you who point to the marvellous civilization of the Chinese, may I remind you that the Japanese hold the Chinese civilization in contempt. I also need not remind anyone of the irony inherent in that situation.

The Industrial Revolution was not some kind of isolated occurance that randomly popped out of a vacuum. It was the culmination of several other historical movements, and it frankly could not have happened without the optimistic spirit of progress born from the Enlightenment, and the scientific framework provided by Grecian and Muslim texts rediscovered in the Renaissance. (It's a little known fact that roots of modern science were handed to us from Muslim natural philosophers...)

Now, as I was saying, these historical movements never reached Japan. As for developing on their own in Japan, it is highly unlikely. Under the Tokugawa, life was very repressive. People lived in their highly constricted social class, and their children lived and died there as well. However 'peaceful' it may have been, it was a stagnant society. (I use peaceful in a very relative sense, obviously. It was a bit more peaceful to have the entire country ruled by one guy who fought with other people than to have hundreds of little leaders fighting with eachother all the time.)

Also, the rigid hierarchical social structure of Japanese culture resists change and innovation. I challenge anyone to find a significant, original invention from Japan made entirely from Japanese ideas, with no aid from abroad. It doesn't happen. This is not a country with a history of invention, it is a culture of modifcation.

It is a well documented fact that Japan excels in what is called 'secondary science'. Someone else invents something, or discovers something, then a Japanese investigator or inventor makes it too, or discovers it too, or adds their own little modification to the original design. The only Japanese inventions I can think of are revolving sushi bars and cup ramen. Incidentally, a few years ago, cup ramen was voted the most important invention of the century by Japanese people. Very telling indeed.

I have to go to work, so allow me to sum up:

Without wholesale importation of industrial technology from the West, Japan would still be almost the same as it was under the Tokugawas. Honestly, this country still has no central heating, and there are only two hot water taps in a school of 400 students! How industrialized is that? How modern is that?

I frequently hear my Japanese colleagues explain these things by saying that they have no money. Let me put it this way: Pornography is 8% of the GDP, there are thousands of stores doing a very brisk business in erasers with paper sleeves that have anime characters on them (they sell for 3 times the price of a normal eraser, this also applies to other random school supplies), you can't go half a city block without running into three convenience stores (where a ridiculously high amount of people buy their food pre-made everyday), fees are created simply for the sake of creating fees (don't get me started about phone lines). There is definately a different set of priorities here. It is plain to me that money is spent on things that are less that necessary in lieu of making buildings with heating systems and hot water.

I've heard that Hokkaido has hot water and central heating. I'd like to visit Hokkaido, from what I've seen of people from that area (i've met more than a few), it seems like a far more reasonable place.

Now, begin your flames, o ye armchair Japan experts, informed by books about Musashi Miyamoto, anime, tourist guides and a few stays in Tokyo for two weeks... I'm more than ready, I've heard it all before.

c

[wutian]

First off well start on your level, Confound I found 6 spelling errors in your post. This is the worst rant, I have ever read. What exactly is your point? That without western influence, Japan would not have grown into the wonderful crap hole it is today? Alrighty then, I have never lived in Japan and you do. Wish that meant something, I live in America and most people here don’t have a clue about American history. There is not even 300 years of it here. You write about there inability to create original things, well think, maybe if they hadn’t always had to deal with other pushy countries (china America GB) they might have.

We imposed are selves on them, and they took up arms against the world (poorly made arms at that). I don’t think this was likely to happen had they been isolated.

I am not an expert by any means, and always open to learn. You always seem so put out. Poor you, you have the terrible job of educating us ‘armchair experts’ I know there there. Thank you, old wise king of the internet nerds.


The point I was trying to make was that Perry parking his ass on the beach saying “open up or be destroyed” was at best: arrogant assumption. No one knows what would have happened, had that not happened. But it wasn’t his call to make.

[nodachi]

I have a problem with the gyms because they are not heated so in the winter you have to do Kendo on the floor where the sun is shining so it is a few degrees warmer than the rest of the floor so you only lose one toe to frost bite instead of your whole foot.

[Tato]

Hi Confound

He he, you're so used to being flamed on this forum that you can't accept that sometimes you post good knowledge.

I don't know for others, but what you discribed about how the Renaisnace and 'The Enlightenment' (didn't know that this was the word in english, thanks) is right.

I'm not an historian, but for what I know, I think that what you said about the posibilities of change in the Tokugawa sogunate is also correct.

But this historical fact don't change another reality, the expedition of the Commodore Perry was motivated by pure self interest, as many of the foreing policy actions (and agressions) of the USA in the last two centuries.

From another point of wiev, most of the countries in the world have some horror in their history, and I can't name one with a big historical impact that is free from this, certainly not USA (America is a much bigger place than USA, plesase).

Not Spain either, with Torquemada. And of course none of the loosers of WWII (or the winners).

This discussion can go very far if we start to look at the particular merits of each country. (In fact, I don't know an issue with more flame potential )

By the way, I don't see the point of discussing all this stuff on this forum. But I can't resist to talk/post abouth history.

I've recently see the figures for the last 8th dan test, the succes rate was 1.1% for +1200 7th dan who presented. The succes rate was close to 20% for test 7th dan test.

I had a french translation of this page:

http://www.kendo.or.jp/japanese/resu...-sinsakai.html


Rei

[AlexM]

When did the these boards become Foreign-Policy-World instead of Kendo-World?...Oh right, I started it....shit. I'll hold back from giving you my magnificient insights into Japanese politics, the industrial revolution, the Grecians...I mean Greeks, 19th century "Gun-Boat" diplomacy, colonisation, the West, civilisations clashing, etc.

That being said a few points:

1) Hokkaido has central heating because:
a) It be cold in Hokkaido
b) Last place colonised in Japan, so more modern installations. I also heard they speak nice, slow, clean Japanese because their ancestors all came from different regions of Japan (i.e. stick to official dialect or no one understands what anyone else is saying).

2) Commodore Perry was an explorer and soldier who in lieu of actually planting a cross on the soil and claiming Japan as an American colony simply said: "Open yourselves to commerce!". This seems like a step up form the earlier Western attitudes of "veni, vidi, vici". Other countries did the same with Japan. One of the reasons they actually signed treaties instead of invading was because Japan had a strong central government that Westerners could identify with (so they didn't TOTALLY need the influence of the "Enlightenment" in order to become modern...they already had one of the pieces in place). The feeling at the time (mid-19th century) was that free-trade was the future and that opening new markets was absolutely essential to economic growth everywhere (sound familiar?). Add to that the fact that we (Westerners) thought we were doing a good thing by cvilising them dress wearing, gold-fish breading, flower-arranging heathens (disclaimer: AlexM is not to be held accountable for his own rantings).

3) Calling the Japanese isolationists is, while largely true to some extent, also a bit of an exageration. Remember that when Japan did open itself up it sent a bunch of people to Europe (mostly Germany, France and Britannia) to go learn and then come back and modernise (every underdeveloped country in the world does this now, but it doesn't seem to work as well). I've always thought that the Japanese seem to balance well between holding on to their culture and taking things from other cultures (that can't be said for all). I am not hoping for a homogenisation of world cultures so I hope they keep some "uniqueness". . . but hey, that's just me.

Jesus...Did I write that much? Max is right, I just can't shut-up.

To redeem myself I offer this piece of information that is actually on topic:

The youngest person to get 8th dan was Matsubara Teruyuki at the age of 48 in 1984 (I think it was his first try too...but I might be wrong). He was neither a cop, nor a professional/school sensei. He almost took up boxing in University instead of continuing kendo. Even at University he went back with the beginners as if he had never started kendo. Keep in mind I got this from an old text I'm translating to English from French (French which I have to correct and "interpret" because it was originaly translated from Japanese). It's a fairly interesting piece about the importance of solitary practice and other things.

[roar]

"Kendokamax, you already flood the forums with virtual verbal diarrhoea. Desist already. Some of us are trying to get important information."

not only kendokamax

[Sakari]

FYI,

I just heard that Kenichi Yoshimura who has been living in France for 30 years got the 8th dan on this weeks tuesday.

So I think he'll qualify as the first european to get 8th dan, if the info I got is correct.

-Sakari

[wutian]

hey kendomax is the plucky comic relief. i say go max go