Seppuku/Harakiri?

[Richiro]

I'm just curious about what others think of ritual suicide. I think that It was neccesary back in earlier times because it restored honor to your family name. Honor Started getting less important so I guess thats why it died out. I Think that honor is still important, but there are better ways to restore honoro to your family name other than killing your self. Any one agree?

[bokkenbreaker83]

yes i do believe that killing one self is not the only way to restore honor to ur name. in some cases, i think, some samurai, i guess ronin, would do stuff in repentence of wat they have failed to do. but in other instances if defeat came, then most samurai would save face and commit seppuku. am i right?, neone?

[Richiro]

Yes u r Correct.

[Slade]

Seppuku, (Sape-puu-kuu) the Japanese formal language term for ritual suicide (Hara-kiri (Har-rah-kee-ree) is the common language term.), was an intregal aspect of feudal Japan (1192-1868). It developed as an intregal part of the code of bushido and the discipline of the samurai warrior class. To the samurai, seppuku--whether ordered as punishment or chosen in preference to a dishonorable death at the hands of an enemy--was unquestionable demonstration of their honor, courage, loyalty, and moral character. Not all Japanese samurai or lords believed in, even though many of them followed the custom. The great Ieyasu Tokugawa, who founded Japan's last great Shogunate dynasty in 1603, eventually issued an edict forbidding hara-kiri to both secondary and primary retainers. The custom was so deeply entrenched, however, that it continued, and in 1663, at the urging of Lord Nobutsuna Matsudaira of Izu, the shogunate government issued another, stronger edict, prohibiting ritual suicide. This was followed up by very stern punishment for any lord who allowed any of his followers to commit harakiri or seppuku. Still the practice continued throughout the long Tokugawa reign, but it declined considerably as time went by.

Honor for the samurai was dearer than life and in many cases, self destruction was regarded not simply as right, but as the only right course. Disgrace and defeat were atoned by committing hara-kiri or seppuku. Other reasons a samurai committed seppuku were: to show contempt for an enemy; to protest against injustice, as a means to get their lord to reconsider an unwise or unworthy action and as a means to save others.

(Taken from: http://victorian.fortunecity.com/duc.../seppuku.html)

[Banza Joe]

How can we possibly reply with an opinion on this? We do not live in a society where suppuku is practiced or even legal.
We cannot, imho, even begin to imagine how, when someone is shamed or dishonoured, they could put a razor sharp knife to their belly and disembowell themselves. The samurai belief systems were very rigid and in the days of bushido, honour was their dearest possession, so it demanded the greatest sacrifice
Nowadays kids get suicidal if they break their PS2's. We just don't have the same values that people did back then, for better or for worse, could be up for debate.
To try to answer the question, Personally, in todays society NO (to seppuku, obviously), back then, YES!

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

it doesnt make sense, I have found the essence of Bushido. To die! ,
I take this as idiotic and meaningless


Takuan Soho says that everyone naturaly wants to preserve life, and in every situation you should attempt to find the route which leads to least confrontation (which is what every matial artist is mean to do right? ), killing yourself to retain your honour means nothing, because when your dead you have no honour and you dont feel shame or pride..
Killing yourself is a cowardly (yet meaninglessly painfull and cruel( way of getting out of a dishonourable situation
Much better do right your wrongs, regain your honourthrough deeds and action (self discipline) and become a better person
... mistakes are essential in becoming a good person
if everyone killed themselves when they did something dishounrable how could they learn

just some thoughts..

[Hisham]

I would think that all of the adult inhabitants of this world would be erased if sepuku was to be the norm nowadays much in the interest of the smiths lobby

[Richiro]

it doesnt make sense, I have found the essence of Bushido. To die! ,
I take this as idiotic and meaningless


Takuan Soho says that everyone naturaly wants to preserve life, and in every situation you should attempt to find the route which leads to least confrontation (which is what every matial artist is mean to do right? ), killing yourself to retain your honour means nothing, because when your dead you have no honour and you dont feel shame or pride..
Killing yourself is a cowardly (yet meaninglessly painfull and cruel( way of getting out of a dishonourable situation
Much better do right your wrongs, regain your honourthrough deeds and action (self discipline) and become a better person
... mistakes are essential in becoming a good person
if everyone killed themselves when they did something dishounrable how could they learn

just some thoughts..

Well you really can't say that killing youself by disembowelment is cowardly. Thats why we dont hear about this any more. Because somone along the line had to have not wanted to commit hara-kiri. Well I think it was right and fit into society then. but now it wouldn't work. people cant commite sucide because of dishonor any more. The only reason for commiting suicide now is either your crazy or depressed. and thats not even with a sword.

[Banza Joe]

Lol....ya know what Richiro? You really ought to think, before starting a thread with the 1st thing that pops into your head.
Re: ikkyu thread, now that was a classic, rofl.

Actually, keep posting, it cheers me up

[Akai Bushi]

The reason there was a code for being loyal and honorable was because before the Tokugawa era(1600-1868) samurai weren't all that loyal or honorable. During the sengoku period(late-15thcentury-1600) samurai would change to the winning side in the middle of a battle. After the Gempei War(1180-1185) the Shogun killed is own brother, Yoshitsune. The very man that won most of the battles. The reason this code of Bushido was created was so that samurai wouldn't be causing also sorts of trouble after the Sengoku jidai ended. Ieyasu wanted a stable government under his control with no resistance.
I maybe wrong about seppuku, but I think it was a device of control over the samurai held by the daimyo and shogun.

[nalogg]

I would think that all of the adult inhabitants of this world would be erased if sepuku was to be the norm nowadays much in the interest of the smiths lobby

HAHA imagine that.. a modern take on seppuku
contestants that don't get chosen for american idol, sitting in seiza, and spilling their guts out on the floor after an audition!

as for the question of this post:

seppuku started out as somebody disembowling themselves and dying, but later on they started to regard a painful death as unnecesesarry for someone who's ending their life for honour... and so they started practicing it differently- once the person committing seppuku would cut the initial belly cut, a samurai poised in jodan would cut off the person's head with a katana, saving him a very long and very painful stomach wound death.

It's my personal opinion that feudal japanese philosophy had a fairly narrow idea of honour (namely the loss of, and how everything you did had a chance of bringing dishonour). The only time i'd see suicide as acceptable in that time period/culture is to avoid an inevitable torture, or to sacrifice yourself for the lives of a group of many as a kind of "extreme negotiation"... i mean people comitted seppuku for some VERY very trivial reasons.... but my 21st century ideas are way different, so what do I know?

[Richiro]

Lol....ya know what Richiro? You really ought to think, before starting a thread with the 1st thing that pops into your head.
Re: ikkyu thread, now that was a classic, rofl.

Actually, keep posting, it cheers me up

Yeah the ikkyu thread was stupid. And some people said it was annoying. I agree. I was just bored.

[Richiro]

But if i don't ask the stupid questions who will?

[Twobitmage]

I dont have a very philosophical view of seppuku.

I think we all value our life, and seppuku is just a way to prove that you cared about something more than your life which is so precious (i.e. your lord, your family, your honor) so thats why its considered honorable to give your life, either through fighting to the death or seppuku

[Hisham]

HAHA imagine that.. a modern take on seppuku
contestants that don't get chosen for american idol, sitting in seiza, and spilling their guts out on the floor after an audition!

shhht some crazy entertainement people might get inspired hehehe

Richiro, I agree with Akai ,you gotta make a difference between the real facts and the romanticized version, seppuku was implemented in the japanese belief system for power and control related reasons and it's surely not to give some bushi the "chance" to die an honorable death, it's like the tweaked confucianism system the final goal is to make sure that rebellion isn't an option in any case.