Musashi or Tesshu?

[Musha]

I was just reading a link for another post that goes as followes:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Few succeeded at tachigiri
Among Yamaoka Tesshu’s (1836-1888) disciples, only a few manage to accomplish the three tachigiri tests and received the menkyo-kaîden. One of them, called Hasegawa, manage to go through the seven days tachigiri, but wasn’t completely successful and was only when he was about to die that he received, from the hands of Tesshu, the menkyo-kaîden title.
The name of Sazaburo Takano (1862-1950) has already been mentioned here before, and he was one of the few who successfully overcame the three tachigiri. “Forged” by the sword of Tesshu, he is one of the masters who left is mark on the beginning of the XX century’s kendo. The famous phrase: “Don’t win after hitting, hit after winning” it’s his. It’s even more elucidative if we relate it with Tesshu’s “formula”: “The sword doesn’t exist outside the spirit.” (shin gaï muto) that, it seems to me, symbolizes his art.
Starting next article, we’ll see how the kendo adepts of the first generation used to practice their art.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was wondering who likes Miyamoto Musashi more? and who likes Yamaoka Tesshu? I have read about Miyamoto Musashi and Tesshu and to me Tesshu is much better. He became enlightened through practicing his kendo and I think trained in a very pure way.

The story of Miyamoto musashi is very vague but people believe he developed great strength which people should repect, not just in kenjyutsu but real life. He does seem like a robin-hood figure that came about again only about 100 years ago maybe to help Japanese people to become better besides beating people and gaining fame and other things. What do you think?

Yamaoka tesshu

Musashi

[Holmgren-san]

This is a little off-topic but: Musha, I see that you live in Saitama, well I am just curious to know if you know/have heard of Yamanaka sensei(8th Dan) and/or Saito sensei(7th Dan)?



P.S. I went with Musashi, I haven't heard anything before of Tesshu.

[kendokamax]

woah paul martin wrote the text on Yamaoka tesshu....scary

I voted for neither.
hum I think vagabond is a fun manga. Musashi kicks ass in it.
There is no manga on tesshu so I dont know! haha

[musashi270]

I have read biography's on both of them and much of their writings, and they are both exellent fighters. they have both contributed to not just the art of the sword, but also the the world of art and calligraphy (especally tesshu, 1 million!!!.) I voted for their being equal because musashi might have been the better fighter, but tesshu did many more things other than the art of the sword. Of course, tesshu is the father of modern kendo.

( I know that this must sound weird coming frome one with my username.)

[ZealUK]

Both men were undoubtedly greatly interesting and influential figures in the history of Japanese martial arts. Having said this there are lots of reasons why they are incomparible. Although they shared a common goal, namely the perfection of sword technique, each man lived in a completely different era.

If you are interested in Tesshu, read John Steven's "Sword of No Sword - Life of the Master Warrior Tesshu". Also Kenji Tokitsu's "Miyamoto Musashi - His Life and Writings", and William Scott Wilson's "Lone Samurai" are good references.

Also the Muto Ryu website is

http://www5d.biglobe.ne.jp/~mutoryu/page1/main.htm

There are some clips of Muto Ryu and Itto Ryu waza on there using Oni Gote which are interesting.

If you like calligraphy as well, there are some examples of Tesshu's work here...

http://www.shambhala.com/zenart/html/gallery/budo.cfm

...some by Nakayama Hakudo and also various others. Some Yokozuna handprints as well.

[Musha]

Does any one actualy know how Musashi helpt martial arts though? He beat some people and wrote a book and opened a school some with a ryu-ha some people practice now..

I think Tesshu popularised kendo and helped to turn martial arts from combat skills to spiritual practices.

[ZealUK]

The view that Tesshu alone changed combat arts to spiritual practices is frankly very naieve. Tesshu was a buddhist, and practiced zazen daily. This probably constituted more to his satori experience than daily training in sword arts.

You have to remember Musashi lived at the end of the Sengoku Jidai, and Tesshu lived at the end of the Tokugawa shogunate and the start of the Meiji era. Musashi's art was developed initially to kill people. A transformation occurred throughout his life, beginning at the age of 29/30 after defeating Sasaki Kojiro. This transformation from Satsujin no Ken to Katsujin no Ken was indicative of his high level of mastery of the sword arts. Others like Yagyu Mnunenori had similar experiences. They were formative in the creating of bujutsu as a system developed from the experiences of warriors learned in the previous years of civil war.

By Tesshu's time most of the samurai class had become ineffectual beurocrats, and even those who maintained the practice of sword arts rarely had call to use them. This was the transition from bujutsu to budo. Practice for refinement of character and technique. Part of Tesshu's contribution was to keep this alive, even after the abolition of the class that propogated these arts.

Anyway read those books I suggested.

[KenShi_JoB]

Couldn't agree more

The view that Tesshu alone changed combat arts to spiritual practices is frankly very naieve. Tesshu was a buddhist, and practiced zazen daily. This probably constituted more to his satori experience than daily training in sword arts.

You have to remember Musashi lived at the end of the Sengoku Jidai, and Tesshu lived at the end of the Tokugawa shogunate and the start of the Meiji era. Musashi's art was developed initially to kill people. A transformation occurred throughout his life, beginning at the age of 29/30 after defeating Sasaki Kojiro. This transformation from Satsujin no Ken to Katsujin no Ken was indicative of his high level of mastery of the sword arts. Others like Yagyu Mnunenori had similar experiences. They were formative in the creating of bujutsu as a system developed from the experiences of warriors learned in the previous years of civil war.

By Tesshu's time most of the samurai class had become ineffectual beurocrats, and even those who maintained the practice of sword arts rarely had call to use them. This was the transition from bujutsu to budo. Practice for refinement of character and technique. Part of Tesshu's contribution was to keep this alive, even after the abolition of the class that propogated these arts.

Anyway read those books I suggested.

[Hisham]

He beat some people and wrote a book and opened a school some with a ryu-ha some people practice now..

The way you're puting it is somewhat insulting to the man and his influence on the japanese culture in general, IMHO you don't know what you're talking about as far as Musashi's concerned, your view of him is that of one that has only touched the surface, as such your argumentation's flawed, actually the fact that you made it about "Musashi vs Tesshu: who's the best?" is a nonsense no offence.I think you should read the books that ZealUK suggested to have a better ubderstanding of why i said the above.
Something else as far as the quotes you posted about Tesshu's concept when it comes to combat, i humbly tell you that those are old philosophies of combat rephrased in other way by another master, like for instance Bruce lee's "water" famous quote.The thing is realizing those concepts and living by them is a great accomplishment in itself which is to the credit of Tesshu.
To end my intervention, the two senseis have both exeled in there own way which got them the respect of their peers and the generations of budo folowers that came after them to this day.This post is not intended to belittle you Musha but i felt some points had to be cleared.

[Musha]

I haven't read the one mentioned about Musashi but I borred the book about Tesshu and read afew chapters. I made this topic to try and find out how people thought about the two.

Maybe I should have named it 'Who contributed the most to the progression of kenjyutsu in general.'

To me Musashi seems a little of a kenjutsu hero to people who are new to the art. His book is extreemly good but you know Steven Hawking isn't the greatest scientist in the world. He is the most famouse..

[ZealUK]

I think your Stephen Hawking comparison is a little off the mark.

Scientists throughout history have always recorded their discoveries, and theories. Comparatively few martial artists have written comprehensive treatises on their arts.

This is probably because the martial artist transmits his knowledge through physical practice and training, leaving little room for written instruction. The written instruction that exists is often some kind of training note, to jog the memory about something learned through physical exertion.

Musashi was able to vividly capture and record the high level that he achieved. He only managed to do this towards the end of his life. My point is that you couldn't write something like Go Rin No Sho without physically understanding the principles that are part of the book.

To suggest that an interest in Musashi is something of a preoccupation of beginners is also tenuous. In Tokitsu's book there are several Hachidan Kendoka who write articles about their interpretations of Musashi's Hyoho. I remember reading an intwerview with Iwata sensei which stated he thought Go Rin No Sho was the best treatise on swordsmanship he had ever read...

"I found GORIN NO SHO explained by Kobayashi Ichiro in a second-hand bookstore in Kyoto in 1988. I studied it with all my heart. He explained the book as one of the old traditional books. However, the explanations are like ones by a martial artist. I have never read such a good book as this. I keenly realized we should study and practice kendo and iaido aiming at GORIN NO SHO as our objective/goal. I often reread it even now. "

In short the Go Rin No Sho may be ambiguous and confusing, but it wasn't written for general consumption. It was written to students of Musashi who had already attained a high level.

Comparisons between Musashi and Tesshu will never come to anything.

Unfortunately pop culture picks up on some historical figures and twists their history to fit its own image of their personalities or exploits. All you can do is read about the history of each person from as many reliable sources as possible, and draw your own conclusions.

[Hisham]

To me Musashi seems a little of a kenjutsu hero to people who are new to the art.

Again i suggest that you read the mentioned books to have a better grasp of what Musashi was about.

[R A Sosnowski]

In short the Go Rin No Sho may be ambiguous and confusing, but it wasn't written for general consumption. It was written to students of Musashi who had already attained a high level.

Comparisons between Musashi and Tesshu will never come to anything.

Unfortunately pop culture picks up on some historical figures and twists their history to fit its own image of their personalities or exploits. All you can do is read about the history of each person from as many reliable sources as possible, and draw your own conclusions.

Agreed.

I admire them both, but they were men of their respective eras, which means two entirely different contexts.

[Hai_hai's_mom]

How come Tom Cruise isn't on the list?

[Musha]

No.3 .............