Dok-Doh

[drizzt]

actualy her list of titles is a little unusual in what it claims.....

thats an odd combination

[rainmaker]

Wow, this is getting interesting. I think her resume is much more impressive than other people. She is white American who has been lived both Japan and Korea. She experienced to knowing both parties. She has dedicated her life studying Asian countries more than anyone here. Are you are telling me she is biased and you are not ????

[rainmaker]

Also, I used her quote so that you can see both side. Everytime there was Japanese people who apologize, there were also strong resistance from otherside. I am not arguing about text book. I am not addressing about Jennifer's personal opinion...

Yes, this is the chick who wrote the article we discussed earlier - about 100 posts back (last week). She lived in Japan, but also taught at a Korean University. She's impressive...

impressively liberal that is. Come on, UCal Berkley and then MIT. Not sure you could name too more leftist schools in the country. He theory is that "acts of contrition serve as confidence-building measures between former adversaries." Fine. That's nice. The reality is that no matter what Japan said or did, it would never be reported objectively in China. Anyone disagree? I doubt it would be played objectively in Korea either - both countries are too busy hating, and both have something to gain from trying to keep Japan out of a leading role in asia.

I don't like her use of very subjective terms throughout her analysis.

By the way, the embassy of Japan and MoFA has the texts of the apologies and statements made by Japanese PMs and government officials online. Read them yourself.

The point is and was - it will never be enough for some people. Japan could apologize 100 times, grovel on the floor weeping for the sins of generations past, fill of coffers the aged victims all over the world, and it would never be enough for Korea and China.

When are China or Korea going to apologize to Japan for being collective asses?

[KevinF]

You're not really answering my question, are you?

[KhawMengLee]

Yes, this is the chick who wrote the article we discussed earlier - about 100 posts back (last week). She lived in Japan, but also taught at a Korean University. She's impressive...

impressively liberal that is. Come on, UCal Berkley and then MIT. Not sure you could name too more leftist schools in the country. He theory is that "acts of contrition serve as confidence-building measures between former adversaries." Fine. That's nice. The reality is that no matter what Japan said or did, it would never be reported objectively in China. Anyone disagree? I doubt it would be played objectively in Korea either - both countries are too busy hating, and both have something to gain from trying to keep Japan out of a leading role in asia.

I don't like her use of very subjective terms throughout her analysis.

By the way, the embassy of Japan and MoFA has the texts of the apologies and statements made by Japanese PMs and government officials online. Read them yourself.

The point is and was - it will never be enough for some people. Japan could apologize 100 times, grovel on the floor weeping for the sins of generations past, fill of coffers the aged victims all over the world, and it would never be enough for Korea and China.

When are China or Korea going to apologize to Japan for being collective asses?

By your statement, the fact that she is an outside observer and leftist, makes all her opinions void.

This then makes any comment by you (an outside observer and right wing) void as well.

So the Japanese Govt's accounts are more valid? Remember this is coming from the same govt. that allowed(no matter how small a percentage its taught to) the right wing to publish history books toning down Nanking. You know...redemption is not gained by just an apology.

You don't just say 'sorry' for murdering someone then think everything is okay. An eye for an eye...this in hebrew term is often misread literally. The term refers to equality...if you take my eye you pay what the eye is worth...if you take a life, it doesn't mean we take your life. What does that solve? 2 people dead does not pay anything back...If you take a life you work to repay what that life is worth, what that life could have been or done.

As I said earlier...Japan needs to be 'seen' to be sincere. They are sorry? Then compensate the comfort women. Build a good centre for the old and give free healthcare to the people they forced into labour. Koizumi should actually walk up to a victim, grasp his/her hands and apologize...show the sincerety.

And as for you saying you are sick and fed up...fine. But remember, you weren't there. You have not felt what our people have felt and suffered...the choice of forgiveness is not yours.

[rainmaker]

Hey, you are smarter than MIT Phd... What can I say. I am sure you can answer everything..

You're not really answering my question, are you?

[KevinF]

Yes, the choice of forgiveness isn't mine because I wasn't there. By that argument, it's not yours either. To extend the argument even further, the only ones who have the right to pursue gratification from Japan would be those who actually encountered or experienced the war. Extend your argument even further, and since Koizumi wasn't there, he shouldn't have to say jack. The only ones who can apologize are those who were there, right?

Your argument is intellectually bankrupt.

By the way, I didn't say that Lind's essay was invalid because she's a tree-hugging pinko. My insults were totally seperate. They were added for flavor. I did, however, argue that her use of language creates a mood in her article that I believe, shows her bias. Too many subjective arguments and not enough facts.

Hmm.. I don't see myself as right-wing. I see myself as moderate.

So the Japanese Govt's accounts are more valid? Remember this is coming from the same govt. that allowed(no matter how small a percentage its taught to) the right wing to publish history books toning down Nanking. You know...redemption is not gained by just an apology.

I can't believe you questioned me with "Japanese accounts are more valid?" I think you were refering to my pointing out that texts of speechs made by J. government officials are available online and we can all read the apologizes for ourselves without Ms. Lind's interpertation. Are you saying that the Japanese MoFA is lying about the texts of speechs made?

Further, as I pointed out before, the textbooks in question were one of a large number of textbooks authorized, only used in less than 1% of schools and I would argue that a full discussion of war crimes/atrocities possibly isn't even appropiate for junior high school in the first place. I question Korea and China's real motives behind pressuring Japan on the issue, especially in face of Japan's push to sit on the UN Security Council. I really question the necessity of any textbook argument at this point also in light of the joint efforts for textbook review occuring now between Korea and Japan.

You know, for many years, Japanese bands couldn't tour in Korea. There were laws in place to prevent Koreans from seeing Japanese moveis, tv shows, listening to music etc. The ban on these things was only removed in 1998. Nice job - there's a free country I want to trust.

From the blog Peking Duck :

South Korean school text books, from middle school upwards, teach hatred. Period. Every Korean I have ever met has expressed the exact same line: that the Japanese are "cruel", in sharp contrast to Koreans, who are "kind." This is the common line. If you think the Chinese hatred for the Japanese is strong, then you ain't seen nothing. Trust me, the Korean hatred of the Japanese is far stronger, far more widespread, far scarier, far more neurotic indeed.

But wait! There's more:

Oon-Hee had sat through an hour of the ABC news earlier that evening, and had learn't of how many Australian, British and American World War Two veterans had been, for many years, pressuring the South Korean government into helping them to bring to justice a number of South Korean nationals who had served in the Japanese Imperial forces as executioners and torturers, of how the Japanese army actually preferred to recruit the services of Koreans to carry out these gruesome tasks, because most Japanese soldiers were considered by their superiors to be too "squeamish" to carry out such acts. None of this was ever discussed or reported on in South Korea. Thus these revelations were to her, both deeply surprsing and shocking.

It seems to me that Korea (and especially China) asking for anything from Japan is the pot calling the kettle black.

Apologies and money won't slove the deep-seeded hatred of Japan by these two nations. The hatred has been cooked-up over the years by Chinese and Korean politicians and instilled in the cultural norms and values of the citizenry.

[ISSAC RU]

KevinF:

You call me a hater ?
From My prespective you are THE hater.

You Americans believe you have the moral superiority and other countries are anything you think they are.
Let me ask you a few questions , answer them straight :

1. Do you believe Japan has the right to place WWII CLASS-A WAR-CRIMINALS in their national shinto shrine?

2. Do you believe everything that comes out from a Chinese government or Korean government are wrong ? and Japan appears to be more vaild than the others?

3. Why is it so hard for Japan to face her war time history when someone
else in the world has already done a fantasic job of it ?

4. Do you believe you Americans have the Moral superiority? Your way
of thinking is better than the others?

[KevinF]

Hey, Issac

Tell you what, I'll take your questions seriously. Just for fun.

I have a few questions of my own:

1. Why are you such a foul noob?
2. Do you know how many people starved in China during the Mao's Great Leap Forward?
3. Can you find Tibet on a map, and if you can, can you explain why I should listen to a government complain abouta past 60 years ago when your government inprisions and tortures Tibetans today?
4. Do your parents know you are a nazi?

[ISSAC RU]

answer your questions 1 by 1.

1. Whatever you like to call me , I will just take it .

2. Yes , I have a clear picture how many people died.
Because of false decision and ''bad weather''.
Chinese government back then weren't really cleaver about
economy plans.

3.Please , have you ever been to Tibet?
My father has personally visited Tibet , my Grandmother has
worked as a construction engineer in Tibet for 4 years.
There is no way in hell , Human rights abuse are going on
in that place. Before the Our gov't liberate Tibet , there was
still slavery system going on there.
Our Gov't spend billion dollars build a trans-high way to connect
tibet to the rest of the provinces. More than 1000 soliders dead
during those years trying to build the highway . Do you truly
believe that Human rights abuse are going on Tibet?
American and western Propaganda. If you have never been to
Tibet or seen the abuse by your eyes , I susguest you should
shut up about it .

4. My parents know me as a true patriotist kid from China and
I am fighting the Evil empire on the front line for my Country.
My whole family is very proud for what I am doing.
Thank you for asking.

[kendo-boi]

Hey, Issac

Tell you what, I'll take your questions seriously. Just for fun.

I have a few questions of my own:

1. Why are you such a foul noob?
2. Do you know how many people starved in China during the Mao's Great Leap Forward?
3. Can you find Tibet on a map, and if you can, can you explain why I should listen to a government complain abouta past 60 years ago when your government inprisions and tortures Tibetans today?
4. Do your parents know you are a nazi?

ya sure...answering questions seriously huh?...

[ISSAC RU]

Hey, Issac

4. Do your parents know you are a nazi?

one more thing I have to remind you about.

Nazi is a white man , not a yellow man.

[kendo-boi]

one more thing I have to remind you about.

Nazi is a white man , not a yellow man.

hahahah....nice!

[Yaiba]

Hey, Issac...
4. Do your parents know you are a nazi?

Hey KevinF, I think you meant communist, right?
If my history is correct, the Nazis disliked and imprisoned communists in their concentration camps because these secretive groups mainly constituted of Jews and were perceived as a threat, and that is why Hitler had a real distrust of the Soviets (communists). Issac is so pro-China and anti-capitalism, I could hardly believe that he would be a Nazi... just my thought.

Issac, in regards to your 4 questions to KevinF:
1) As far as the Yasukuni Shrine is concerned, it's a Japanese domestic matter... as much as you hate the existence of that shrine, you have no right to dictate what the Japanese should and shouldn't do. Even you spoke of Tibet and Taiwan as being China's domestic issues and not for foreign countries to interfere with... so I think you've made my point valid.

2) KevinF is simply stating that the Chinese and Korean governments are protesting to Japan to score political points and hinder Japan's ambitions to gain a seat on the UN Security Council. It's a fair assumption.

3) I think you're implying the Germans, right? Well, KevinF has been saying all along that Japan has apologised numerous times, paid reparations, etc, etc... how is this different to how the Germans have done it? BTW, German and Japanese cultures/psyches are very different so you can't expect them to behave/apologise in the same way. Also, I don't consider the German law to imprison people who question the Holocaust as a "fantastic job"... I consider it as a violation of human right to free speech.

4) I don't think KevinF has once said that the American way of thinking is morally superior and better than other countries.

[ISSAC RU]

About the Shrine thing .

That is not a Domestic Issue.

Let me ask you this :

What will happen if people place Hilter in their national church or some
sort of national symbol ?
Will that still be a domestic issue?