Dok-Doh

[Yaiba]

one more thing I have to remind you about.

Nazi is a white man , not a yellow man.

A Nazi (or National Socialist) is a person who believes in the ideology of National Socialism... so I don't think you necessarily have to be white to be a Nazi. I've read on the internet somewhere that there was a prominent person from India that held National Socialism in high regard.

[ISSAC RU]

Answer my previous Question ,
Don't change the topic

[eXact]

I know answer the question
all you americans are just supporting eachother.
Its like america vs. china in this thread

[kendo-boi]

I know answer the question
all you americans are just supporting eachother.
Its like america vs. china in this thread

hahaha...i know seems like it to me too!

[Yaiba]

About the Shrine thing .

That is not a Domestic Issue.

Let me ask you this :

What will happen if people place Hilter in their national church or some
sort of national symbol ?
Will that still be a domestic issue?

Yes... do you know why? Let me explain in a way that you could understand... a classic example is this: Christians believe Jesus to be the Son of God and many worship the figure of Christ; Jews on the other hand see Jesus to be nothing more than a heretic (this is from the Jewish Talmud: 'Jesus of Nazareth was hung up on the day of preparation for the Passover for practising sorcery and leading Israel astray' Baraita Sanhedrin 43a). Jewish people may believe the Christians are worshipping an imposter but they have no right to tell them what to do, don't you agree? (NB. I mean no offence to Christian or Jewish people and I apologise to anyone who considers this example as inappropriate.)

BTW, there are many people in Germany (and also in other parts of Europe and America) that still secretly consider Hitler to be a true national hero. The thing is, more and more are starting to think like this because of Revisionism and it has been reported that there has been a significant increase in the number of arrests/convictions of those who've questioned the Holocaust in Germany over the last few years.

[Yaiba]

Answer my previous Question ,
Don't change the topic

Whoa... settle down. No need to get aggressive. I've answered your question.

[ISSAC RU]

Thank you , but that wasn't really a direct answer.
3 men


Hilter , Mussolini , Tojo

same scale .

[Yaiba]

Thank you , but that wasn't really a direct answer.
3 men


Hilter , Mussolini , Tojo

same scale .

Yes, that actually was a direct answer because I answered "Yes, it is a domestic issue". Didn't you understand any of what I was saying? Or are you just ignoring what I said because it's inconvenient for you now?

BTW, you should understand that not all people consider those 3 men that you mentioned above as being war criminals. Like I explained earlier, there are people that consider them to be national heroes for various reasons... so face this fact and deal with it.

[KhawMengLee]

Yes, the choice of forgiveness isn't mine because I wasn't there. By that argument, it's not yours either. To extend the argument even further, the only ones who have the right to pursue gratification from Japan would be those who actually encountered or experienced the war. Extend your argument even further, and since Koizumi wasn't there, he shouldn't have to say jack. The only ones who can apologize are those who were there, right?

Your argument is intellectually bankrupt.

By the way, I didn't say that Lind's essay was invalid because she's a tree-hugging pinko. My insults were totally seperate. They were added for flavor. I did, however, argue that her use of language creates a mood in her article that I believe, shows her bias. Too many subjective arguments and not enough facts.

Hmm.. I don't see myself as right-wing. I see myself as moderate.



I can't believe you questioned me with "Japanese accounts are more valid?" I think you were refering to my pointing out that texts of speechs made by J. government officials are available online and we can all read the apologizes for ourselves without Ms. Lind's interpertation. Are you saying that the Japanese MoFA is lying about the texts of speechs made?

Further, as I pointed out before, the textbooks in question were one of a large number of textbooks authorized, only used in less than 1% of schools and I would argue that a full discussion of war crimes/atrocities possibly isn't even appropiate for junior high school in the first place. I question Korea and China's real motives behind pressuring Japan on the issue, especially in face of Japan's push to sit on the UN Security Council. I really question the necessity of any textbook argument at this point also in light of the joint efforts for textbook review occuring now between Korea and Japan.

You know, for many years, Japanese bands couldn't tour in Korea. There were laws in place to prevent Koreans from seeing Japanese moveis, tv shows, listening to music etc. The ban on these things was only removed in 1998. Nice job - there's a free country I want to trust.

From the blog Peking Duck :

But wait! There's more:


It seems to me that Korea (and especially China) asking for anything from Japan is the pot calling the kettle black.

Apologies and money won't slove the deep-seeded hatred of Japan by these two nations. The hatred has been cooked-up over the years by Chinese and Korean politicians and instilled in the cultural norms and values of the citizenry.

This hatred is not something cooked up overnight or introduced to the population. As I said, you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to how ppl in the region 'feel'.

I spent half my life in Australia and then working in different places around the world. I feel that my generation live in a world without war. I have seen a few japanese do wrong things and then again I have seen many malaysians do the same. In my opinion, every nation and race has its fair share of pricks. I have this view because this is my experience with the world.

But people who were there to experience the Japanese invasion felt their cruelty first had. Koreans employed to do the dirty work? Sure, but who told them to pull the trigger? A man who commands the deed to be done is just as guilty as the executioner.

The generation who suffered only know Japan as evil. And the fact that Japan has not done anything to change this image leaves only the hate and fear. Why do you think they teach this to their children? Because this is all they know and they don't want the same to happen to their kids.

[KevinF]

First of all - in response to Kendo-boi's statements (post #206), I did have this long response to Issac's questions (post #203) all written out, and my questions came after that. I edited the post as I didn't think it was really worth it.

Second, thanks Yaiba for your comments. I actually did mean "nazi" and not "communist," or "socialist" for that matter. The distinction is actually quite subtle, and I was referring to his propaganda and fervor, not really to any higher political thoughts or philosophy.

Third, where did all the 15 and 16 year old boys come from so suddenly at night?

Now, to a meater issue: Lee, not sure you can really claim that I have not right to talk about the issues bacause I have no idea what is really felt in the region. Should I take it to mean that the sentiments related in Peking Duck were bogus? If you have lived half your life in Australia, I'm not sure you are qualified either, for that matter, and Rainmaker at least could admit his possible bias.

Your comments about pricks is dead on. They are everywhere (incl., but not limited to: Australia, Canada, China, Japan, Korea and the U.S.). On average, though, there are very few pricks in Thailand - those are nice people.

The point about the Koreans doing the dirty work was an interesting one, and one not raised yet. I have already raised the issue of Korea's recent violent past, ongoing civil war, and revisionist textbooks as they relate to the North. In that post, I was discussing the way Korea has molded hatred for Japan and stired up unrest among its populace with anti-Japanese laws and a lax view of its own transgressions during the period of Japanese occupation. You can call all of these things fair, or blame them on Japan if you want, but IMHO they produce a stiled view of the world from a Korean perspective.

The generation who suffered only know Japan as evil. And the fact that Japan has not done anything to change this image leaves only the hate and fear. Why do you think they teach this to their children? Because this is all they know and they don't want the same to happen to their kids.

Actually, this was part of a previos post of mine on the issue. My argument is that younger Koreans and Chinese hate Japan even *more* than previous generations do. Obviously, the propaganda is working.

On the other hand, Korean culture is booming in Japan. Bae Yong Joon (32), known in Japan simply as "Yon-sama, is incredibly popular, as is BoA, a crossover singer who sings in both her native Korean and Japanese. Its strange that evil Japan is reaching out and embracing Korean pop culture so much. I would actually argue that most Japanese people probably aren't even aware of the extent that their products and cultural exports were banned for so long in Korea.

[KevinF]

Oh, I have a few questions more for Issac:

1. Why did China execute Lobsang Dondrup, a Tibetan monk in 2002?
2. Do you believe that non-violently protesting warrents a death sentence, as is the case with Tenzin Delek, a Tibetan monk currently imprisoned?
3. Who exactly were the Tibetans "liberated" from (your word) by the Chinese invasion?
4. Would China ever apologize for the 1.2 million Tibetans killed since the Chinese "liberation" in 1950?
5. Can you comment on the Tibetan demonstrations of 27 September 1987, where more than 200 Tibetans staged a demonstration in Lhasa. In the clamp down which followed on successive demonstrations - including the ones on 1 October 1987 and 5 March 1988 - Chinese police opened fire, killing and critically wounding many on the spot and imprisoning at least 2,500?
6. Would a nation "liberated" require martial law from 1950 to 1990 (40 years)?
7. Can you comment on Chinese violations of the UN Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (Convention Against Torture), and customary laws of nations such as the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) in Tibet?
8. Can you explain why the UN Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities passed the "Situation in Tibet" Resolution (1991/10) on 23 August 1991,, expressing concern at "continuing reports of violations of fundamental human rights and freedoms which threatened the distinct cultural, religious and national identity of the Tibetan people"?
9. Finally, if the "liberation" of Tibet is an internal matter, wouldn't, by the same logic, the Japanese invasion of China and Korea be an internal matter? I don't see much of a difference between the two. The only difference is in the current ownership of the land in question, and the acts seem largley the same.

Thank you.

[samurai999]

By your statement, the fact that she is an outside observer and leftist, makes all her opinions void.

This then makes any comment by you (an outside observer and right wing) void as well.

I don't think Kevin is right wing? I think he is moderate. Have you seen extreme left and extreme right? I've seen it in this country and the extreme left are in Northern California. My home county has the ONLY congresswoman (or man) who opposed the war on terrorism right after 9/11. I can say that she DIDN'T speak for me. The extreme right are usually in the "bible belt".

People like him are considered left wing in parts of the deep south FYI.

Tim

[rainmaker]

oh, kevin, kevin, kevin....

In that post, I was discussing the way Korea has molded hatred for Japan and stired up unrest among its populace with anti-Japanese laws and a lax view of its own transgressions during the period of Japanese occupation. You can call all of these things fair, or blame them on Japan if you want, but IMHO they produce a stiled view of the world from a Korean perspective.

=> Let me tell you how Japanese treat Koreans living in Japan. There is a large population of Koreans (now divided into North Korean and South Korean citizens) in Japan. In 1997, the number of Koreans living in Japan was estimated to be approximately 700,000 - mostly second- and third-generation Koreans who do not have Japanese citizenship, but whose native language is Japanese. Prejudice against Koreans still prevails today in Japanese government policies, as well as in the attitudes of many Japanese people. Koreans face difficulties in employment, obtaining passports, housing and marriage to Japanese.

Koreans are rarely employed by large companies and are not allowed to hold positions of management in the public sector, since the government regards these positions as positions of authority. The result of this exclusion is that unemployment rates for Koreans are substantially higher than those of the general population. Koreans are also disproportionately represented in unskilled and semi-skilled jobs. There are other areas in which Koreans are discriminated against. Even though they pay taxes, they are not allowed to vote, nor are they allowed all the same welfare benefits as Japanese. Until 1982 they received no state pensions.

Actually, this was part of a previos post of mine on the issue. My argument is that younger Koreans and Chinese hate Japan even *more* than previous generations do. Obviously, the propaganda is working.
=> Wrong again. It is depends on when and whom you talk with Korean. Personnel exchanges between Korea and Japan were extremely limited before the two countries normalized their diplomatic relations in 1965. The number of Korean and Japanese travelers between the two countries stood at some 10,000 annually then, but today, that many people travel between the two countries on a daily basis. As you mentioned earlier, We didn't even have any cultural relationship prior to 1998s. Since then we have imported Japanese movies and Utada Hikaru is one of the popular popstar in Korea. Also, we held Worldcup together. Since then, the two countries have widely promoted exchange programs in many areas, such as theatrical art, exhibitions, sports, youth activities, local government, and academics.

Quote: According to the "World Cup Korea-Japan Joint Public Opinion Poll," conducted by the Chosun Ilbo and the Mainichi Shinbun in early July, immediately following the World Cup, the number of Japanese who said they felt a sense of affinity with Korea increased from 38% in 1995 to 48% in 1997, 69% in January of this year, and 77% in July. The number of Koreans who felt a sense of affinity with Japan amounted to 26% in 1995, 29% in 1997, and 35% and 42%, respectively, in January and July of 2002. Although the number still did not reach 50%, a steady upward trend can be seen.

I am sure right after political dispute between two countries, such % will be lower and bitter reaction is anticipated. Koreans are more sensitive about such subject than Japanese. Can you blame Korean for such behavior ? I don't think so.

On the other hand, Korean culture is booming in Japan. Bae Yong Joon (32), known in Japan simply as "Yon-sama, is incredibly popular, as is BoA, a crossover singer who sings in both her native Korean and Japanese. Its strange that evil Japan is reaching out and embracing Korean pop culture so much. I would actually argue that most Japanese people probably aren't even aware of the extent that their products and cultural exports were banned for so long in Korea.

=> Why don't you look at the bigger picture ? Yon-sama syndrom is just small piece of trade between Korea. In 2002, South Korea’s trade deficit with Japan amounted to US$14.7 billion. Its exports to Japan were $15.14 billion, but it imported $29.85 billion worth of Japanese goods. How much Yon-sama and Boa made money from Japan ?? Maybe $1~2M ??? Yes, It is interesting that Korean actor or singer is being popular in Japan. But think about how much Japanese brand name, such as Sony, Cannon, Honda are being more popular in Korea than those actors in Japan.

[samurai999]

Actually, this was part of a previos post of mine on the issue. My argument is that younger Koreans and Chinese hate Japan even *more* than previous generations do. Obviously, the propaganda is working.
=> Wrong again. It is depends on when and whom you talk with Korean. Personnel exchanges between Korea and Japan were extremely limited before the two countries normalized their diplomatic relations in 1965. The number of Korean and Japanese travelers between the two countries stood at some 10,000 annually then, but today, that many people travel between the two countries on a daily basis. As you mentioned earlier, We didn't even have any cultural relationship prior to 1998s. Since then we have imported Japanese movies and Utada Hikaru is one of the popular popstar in Korea. Also, we held Worldcup together. Since then, the two countries have widely promoted exchange programs in many areas, such as theatrical art, exhibitions, sports, youth activities, local government, and academics.

.

I don't think that younger koreans hate Jp people more.. A lot of the koreans, Japanese and Chinese here in Southern Cal and norcal for that matter (most of them are 2nd gen or at the most, 3rd gen) have a pretty good relationship with each other. I think the hate is spewed by "good 'ol boy" groups which are stubbornly intent on preserving their own hatreds towards another race for whatever reason they believe.

Tim

[rainmaker]

Tim, I agree with this. In California, second largest Kendo population after Japanese is Korean. I have get along great with Japenese friend and I often wonder how they can even started the world warII.

I just hate Japanese governement's inconsistent policy toward to Korea. It does really frustrate us. I cannot make comment about their relationship with China since I really don't know their relationship.

I don't think that younger koreans hate Jp people more.. A lot of the koreans, Japanese and Chinese here in Southern Cal and norcal for that matter (most of them are 2nd gen or at the most, 3rd gen) have a pretty good relationship with each other. I think the hate is spewed by "good 'ol boy" groups which are stubbornly intent on preserving their own hatreds towards another race for whatever reason they believe.

Tim