Dok-Doh

[KevinF]

Rainmaker,

Good point about the treatment of Koreans in Japan. I don't like it, and the recent Japanese Supreme Court decision regarding the Nurse Manager who retained her Korean citizenship was IMHO wrong. However, if this specifically is what you are discussing, the woman had the opportunity ot give up her citizenship and become Japanese. Koreans don't have to live in Japan. They live there by choice. But I'm willing to conceed that I don't like some of the government policies in this regard.

Yes, there are a number of exchange programs. Thankfully, after Korea tore down its anti-Japanese laws in 1998, these programs, as well as the free flow of people and ideas could occur. In fact, as I mentioned in a previous post, there is even a joint commission investigating the textbook issue.

By the way, I brought up an issue of great importance to the discussion. I think its of value to take a good look at the way Korea has dealt with its own war crimials who willingly aided and abetted the Japanese occupation. I think if we find a lack of committment in pursuring Korean traitors and human rights abusers, than we can show some basis for some of my claims that Korea is biased against Japan (and not for good reason as you say). Many people posting here are willing to discuss Japanese war crimes and the situation in Japan, I'm just sitting abck and taking a look at what is going on in the other nations for whom it is apparently fit to point fingers. I think Issac certainly has no moral authority to point fingers, and I chuckle every time I think about his post equating the Dali Lama with Osama bin Laden.

Korea is not a stable nation. It is a nation in the midst of an unresolved civil war. The South Korean government was perfectly willing to quell potential rebellion by using special forces troops against its own people in 1980. Until 1998, anti-Japanese laws were in place which prevented a free flow of ideas and people, and I argue this helped Korea maintain its anti-Japanese sentiment. I'm not sure if you deny any of this, or dismiss it with a wave of the magical staement "can you blame them" or "its all Japan's fault."

Tim is right - its the "good-ol' boy" networks that keep this hate alive. My argument is that these good ol' boys are certainly in control of the Korean government and media and are willing to use it to further unnecessary sentiment aginst a benevolent neighbour.

I can blame Korea for hyper-sensitivity, yes. However, I am willing to conceed that the Korean sentiment is probably more genuine that the Chinese sentiment. I think the Chinese sentiment against Japan is far more of a twisted and fabricated political game played by Beijing than what occurs in Seoul. Either way, the hatred and Japan-bashing that occurs is not in the best interests of the people in both nations (although it *is* in the best interests of China, as they are actively seeking to keep Japan off the UN Sec Council, as mentioned before).

This kind of leads us back to the issue of Takeshima nicely, doesn't it? I argue that the positioning of Korean warships around Takeshima is a overkill, and the Korean media and government stirs up the feelings again. The issuing of the Dokdoh postage stamps is just another example of the Korean mentality of not keeping the hatred too far out of sight or mind.

By the way, I am looking at the bigger picture. People like you see the past (which is not trivial, I agree) but focus so much energy on minor issues like the textbooks or Yasukuni Jinja or a rock in the ocean with two permanent inhabitants and no fresh wat, and I am more focused on the larger issues of Asian peace and stability. I've said that several times.

We can argue the details back and forth if you would like, but the reality is that a sane analysis of the asian political and military situation would lead to the logical conclusion of an increased power base in Japan to offset China.

P.S. Please don't whine about a trade deficit. Hyundais aren't Toyota and Samsung isn't exactly Sony. I don't think it appropiate for Detroit to whine about the consumer vehicle market when they churn out crap, and its very unbecoming for you to do the same.

[rainmaker]

This kind of leads us back to the issue of Takeshima nicely, doesn't it? I argue that the positioning of Korean warships around Takeshima is a overkill, and the Korean media and government stirs up the feelings again. The issuing of the Dokdoh postage stamps is just another example of the Korean mentality of not keeping the hatred too far out of sight or mind.
=> Again, we believe Dokdoh is our land and we are just trying to make our point across. I don't believe they are ready for war. Koreans know that their Navy is far weaker than Japan.


P.S. Please don't whine about a trade deficit. Hyundais aren't Toyota and Samsung isn't exactly Sony. I don't think it appropiate for Detroit to whine about the consumer vehicle market when they churn out crap, and its very unbecoming for you to do the same.

=> I am not talking about deficit. You started with Yon-sama crap. They maybe buy little bit of Korean cultural things but Korean buys much more stuff from Japan...

[ISSAC RU]

Oh, I have a few questions more for Issac:

1. Why did China execute Lobsang Dondrup, a Tibetan monk in 2002?
2. Do you believe that non-violently protesting warrents a death sentence, as is the case with Tenzin Delek, a Tibetan monk currently imprisoned?
3. Who exactly were the Tibetans "liberated" from (your word) by the Chinese invasion?
4. Would China ever apologize for the 1.2 million Tibetans killed since the Chinese "liberation" in 1950?
5. Can you comment on the Tibetan demonstrations of 27 September 1987, where more than 200 Tibetans staged a demonstration in Lhasa. In the clamp down which followed on successive demonstrations - including the ones on 1 October 1987 and 5 March 1988 - Chinese police opened fire, killing and critically wounding many on the spot and imprisoning at least 2,500?
6. Would a nation "liberated" require martial law from 1950 to 1990 (40 years)?
7. Can you comment on Chinese violations of the UN Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (Convention Against Torture), and customary laws of nations such as the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) in Tibet?
8. Can you explain why the UN Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities passed the "Situation in Tibet" Resolution (1991/10) on 23 August 1991,, expressing concern at "continuing reports of violations of fundamental human rights and freedoms which threatened the distinct cultural, religious and national identity of the Tibetan people"?
9. Finally, if the "liberation" of Tibet is an internal matter, wouldn't, by the same logic, the Japanese invasion of China and Korea be an internal matter? I don't see much of a difference between the two. The only difference is in the current ownership of the land in question, and the acts seem largley the same.

Thank you.

Before I answer all your questions , please answer mine first.
Post #203

You really pissed me off at #9 ,

JAPAN'S INVASION ON CHINA AND KOREA IS A INTERNEL MATTER?
Are you seriously thinking this way?
If you are , you are no different from a Japanese ultra-right wing
terroist and I will stop this conversation right away.

Tibetan is part of Chinese ethic group , Period.
China is a country made up by 56 different kinds of ethic group.

[KevinF]

Issac, hi, I see you are back from Kindercare.

Okay, I give it a go:

1. Do you believe Japan has the right to place WWII CLASS-A WAR-CRIMINALS in their national shinto shrine?

Yes, it is a shinto belief. Every soul deserves a resting place. I don't see - regardless of what Tojo or some others did - why they don't deserve, as human beings, a resting place. It just happens to be with the souls of many other Japanese who died in the conflicts throughout history.
Further, the issue of the location of the kami in question is a religious one, and like you love to point out with reference to Tibet, and internal issue. I haven't complained about Mao's tomb in specific, or the cult that has grown around him, nor would I ever advocate tossing out the remains of the inhuman Chinese generals who invaded Tibet in 1950..... But you have advocated going to Japan and razing a shrine. Hmmm... anyone for going to China and setting fire to Mao's embalmed body? Sounds to be on the same level...
So, it short, the answer is 100%, yes.

2. Do you believe everything that comes out from a Chinese government or Korean government are wrong ? and Japan appears to be more vaild than the others?

No, just most. And I make a big distinction between the Chinese and the Koreans. See my last few posts for details.

3. Why is it so hard for Japan to face her war time history when someone else in the world has already done a fantasic job of it ?

It's not hard. It's been done. And redone. Several times, in fact. China signed away all rights to war calims in the 1970's. Too bad for China. I guess the government saw the economic aid that Japan was offering, and has given over the years, as far more important than the past. At least, that's how is was perceived then. Years later, with double-digit economic growth, admission to the WTO, favorable trading status with the U.S., China want to start this up again? With Japan lobbying for the afore mentioned reform in the UN, the entire act seems bogus.
Who is this "someone else in the world?" I'm not sure if you are talking about Germany, or what.

4. Do you believe you Americans have the Moral superiority? Your way of thinking is better than the others?

Nope. Never said they did. I did say, however, that China certainly has no right to whine about abuses and war-time actions with a shocking history of its own. And China's abusive history is more recent and continues to this day.

Hey, when can we expect a Chinese Nobel prize laureate? I mean, the Dali Lama (who you say is Bin Laden), got his, and even a Japanese Prime Minister got one. When will the peaceful, benevolent Chinese be recognized for their efforts by the Nobel committee?

You know, its too bad most of the rest of the world doesn't buy the idea of Tibetans being a "Chinese ethnic group." I'm glad my ninth question pissed you off. That was it's intention. The point behind the question is that Tibet is just as much an "internal" matter for China is as Korea or China was for Japan. I see them as the same. In fact, at least Japan made a better show of the occupation of China by installing Pu Yi into power in Manchukwo - he at least had a legitimate claim to authority in China.

Okay, my part is done. Answer questions 1-8 (I already got the answer for #9). I can't wait for this!

[rainmaker]

Tibetan is part of Chinese ethic group , Period.
China is a country made up by 56 different kinds of ethic group.
=> I disagree with this. Chinese killing Tibetan is wrong. American killing native indian is wrong. Korean killing its own citizen during Kwangju uprising is wrong. Japanese killing Korean and Chinese during WWII is wrong..... Killing people for their own good, is wrong. It is murder. Simple..

[ISSAC RU]

Alright , since you agree Japan has the right to place WWII Class-A WarCriminals
in their national shrine I will have no further place in this conversation.
You are already a Japanese Ultra-Right Wing Terroist supporter , according
to my previous post . I will stop everything right here.
I asked this question before you do , So I legally have the right to leave this discussion without answering your questions.

Bye Bye , Its been a fun time talking with you.

Sayanora~

[rainmaker]

Good point about the treatment of Koreans in Japan. I don't like it, and the recent Japanese Supreme Court decision regarding the Nurse Manager who retained her Korean citizenship was IMHO wrong. However, if this specifically is what you are discussing, the woman had the opportunity ot give up her citizenship and become Japanese. Koreans don't have to live in Japan. They live there by choice. But I'm willing to conceed that I don't like some of the government policies in this regard.

=> I am very disappoint with such statement. I am sure you are not such extremist. Not only Nurse case but there has been many other incidents like this in Japan. If you don't diasgree with what government do, leave. Such extreme idea is wrong. However, if anyone agrees with such idea, you are no different than Chinese government, Castro from Cuba or Japenese left wing.

There are more than 40% of American who disagree with Bush administration, do they have to leave US? Do you and I have to agree with all US law and regulation ? No. If you believe something is wrong, then you should speak up. Do your best to change it. That is what democracy is about. We are not talking about Cuba here..

Also not many people do not live by choice. They were born there and went to school and raised in Japan, who doesn't know a word of Korean. Most of the ethnic Korean permanent residents of Japan, from both the South and the North, are those who came between 1910, when Japan annexed Korea as a colony, and the end of World War II (1945) and their children and grandchildren. During World War II, many Koreans were forcibly brought to work in Japan. Accurate figures of the number of ethnic Koreans residing in Japan are not known, it is believed that about 650,000 Koreans, including those who remained in Japan at the war's end, their children, and grandchildren, currently hold North or South Korean citizenship. The majority of these are second- and third-generation Koreans born in Japan. Including those who have taken Japanese citizenship and those born between a Japanese and Korean parent, it is believed that there are about 2 million people of Korean heritage in Japan today.

[KevinF]

Bye, Issac

Thank you for removing yourself from the discussion. Feel free to start another, even more radical thread.

Sungmin, yes, its a controversial statement, and I wasn't saying that they should either like it or lump it, but rather that some have made some decisions with full knowledge of the repercussions (as is the case with the nurse).

But you underlined only part of what I said, and selected it for attack. It's funny, I was agreeing with you. Did you miss that?

Check your personal messages as well. I wrote you a message specifically about this.

[samurai999]

[i]
There are more than 40% of American who disagree with Bush administration, do they have to leave US? Do you and I have to agree with all US law and regulation ? No. If you believe something is wrong, then you should speak up. Do your best to change it. That is what democracy is about. We are not talking about Cuba here..

Yes there is an under 45% approval rate for the good ol prez right now. At least in the left wing areas of California, because the Democrats lost (again) to the Republicans, some people have either moved to Canada or France. (ironically still maintaining their American citizenship probably for the day that one of "theirs" will get into office) Canada for their affordable (but lots of quacks I heard) health care and dunno know why they went to france....

Now we have the crazy (almost psychotic?) Howard Dean trying to just rip into the Republicans to show toughness. Why doesn't he recruit another ultra left winger Dennis Kucinich and start his own party. Of course this isn't really helping me to be swayed into voting for a Democratic president. I say... Libertarian.. Peace and Freedom anybody??

Tim

[rainmaker]

I do understand Canada, but why people moved to France ??? Kevin, your thought please ???

Yes there is an under 45% approval rate for the good ol prez right now. At least in the left wing areas of California, because the Democrats lost (again) to the Republicans, some people have either moved to Canada or France. (ironically still maintaining their American citizenship probably for the day that one of "theirs" will get into office) Canada for their affordable (but lots of quacks I heard) health care and dunno know why they went to france....

Now we have the crazy (almost psychotic?) Howard Dean trying to just rip into the Republicans to show toughness. Why doesn't he recruit another ultra left winger Dennis Kucinich and start his own party. Of course this isn't really helping me to be swayed into voting for a Democratic president. I say... Libertarian.. Peace and Freedom anybody??

Tim

[drizzt]

I found the fact our "idiot" president maintained better grades than his supposedly intelectualy superior oponent hehehehehehe(i dont like kerry btw)

[KhawMengLee]

Now, to a meater issue: Lee, not sure you can really claim that I have not right to talk about the issues bacause I have no idea what is really felt in the region. Should I take it to mean that the sentiments related in Peking Duck were bogus? If you have lived half your life in Australia, I'm not sure you are qualified either, for that matter, and Rainmaker at least could admit his possible bias.

[/size]

As I said in another post, my family has had a rather traumatic past with the Japanese occupation. Yes, I have spent half my life in Australia and maybe for the better because it taught me to look at things differently.

My family was witness to what the Japanese were capable of first hand. Now my view should be baised but it isn't...I'm at the moment pointing out what the victim's side feels.

My best friend's father was just a baby in his mother's arms when the Japanese strafed the road they were on. People in Petaling St in Kl still point to places there where the Japanese used to display the heads of people they beheaded. But do we hate the Japanese, no. Our circle of friends in Uni(all surfers) were a mix of Malaysians, japanese and Danes...we respect each other as people.

I react strongly to this issue because of the dispassionate attitude people have on this issue. People in the occupied regions that fought have a very different view on this subject.

On the other hand, Korean culture is booming in Japan. [size=-1]Bae Yong Joon (32), known in Japan simply as "Yon-sama, is incredibly popular, as is BoA, a crossover singer who sings in both her native Korean and Japanese. Its strange that evil Japan is reaching out and embracing Korean pop culture so much. I would actually argue that most Japanese people probably aren't even aware of the extent that their products and cultural exports were banned for so long in Korea.

Actually, many japanese icons were actually Korean. Take Mas Oyama, the karate god, whose real name was Choi Baedel.

[KhawMengLee]

However, if this specifically is what you are discussing, the woman had the opportunity ot give up her citizenship and become Japanese. Koreans don't have to live in Japan. They live there by choice. But I'm willing to conceed that I don't like some of the government policies in this regard.

Remember, many of them were forced into labour gangs and shipped to Japan to work.

Its like saying, oh, Descenents of African Slaves don't have to live in America. They live there by choice.

Yes, because its the only life they know.

[KevinF]

Lee,

Well, my comments about the Koreans living in Japan really referred to those who rejected Japanese citizenship only (as in the case of the nurse manager who was in the news recently who was denied a public government nursing management position becuse she was a foreigner). She had the opportunity to become a Japanese citizen long ago, but decided (unlike her brother and the rest of her family) to remain Korean. Many Koreans living in Japan are treated unfairly, but I in some cases, I could the governments' position, especially if a remedy to the discrimination was provided years ago.

I think its natural that some positions would be denied from foreigners in any country. I wouldn't imagine going to Australia and becomming an Australian army officer, or living in France and becoming a French secret agent even if I spoke French perfectly. Any country has the right to bar certain positions from people who are foreigners, I think. *But*, there is still a lot of descrimination...

Rainmaker & Samurai999: I really haven't heard about any large numbers of Americans fleeing to France. Of all the nations I could think of, I find that particular choice of nations to which to immigrate particularly unbelievable.

Lee: Sorry about your family's experiences during the war. There are ligitimate feelings and wounds from the war that are yet to heal - nor will they ever truely heal, regardless of what is said or done in Tokyo, I think. However, I think we should all be weary of this sort of animosity and bad feelings and give Japan the benefit of the doubt. As mentioned before, Japan has managed to exist peacefully in Asia for 60 years now - which is more than can be said of any other nation in Asia, especially, also as mentioned before, the two nations most critical of Japan. This makes me naturally suspicious, and the Chinese seem especially ready to use this sentiment for political and economic gain.

[rainmaker]

I do not have any problem with this specific incident. It is not only in Japan but also in many other countries have same policy. They do often give ristriction on governement job. I wouldn't feel comfortable if US president has French citizenship....

Lee,

Well, my comments about the Koreans living in Japan really referred to those who rejected Japanese citizenship only (as in the case of the nurse manager who was in the news recently who was denied a public government nursing management position becuse she was a foreigner). She had the opportunity to become a Japanese citizen long ago, but decided (unlike her brother and the rest of her family) to remain Korean. Many Koreans living in Japan are treated unfairly, but I in some cases, I could the governments' position, especially if a remedy to the discrimination was provided years ago.

I think its natural that some positions would be denied from foreigners in any country. I wouldn't imagine going to Australia and becomming an Australian army officer, or living in France and becoming a French secret agent even if I spoke French perfectly. Any country has the right to bar certain positions from people who are foreigners, I think. *But*, there is still a lot of descrimination...