Dok-Doh

[rainmaker]

Kevin-san,

I was rather disappointed at your personal opinion, especially, your attitude toward to Korean and Chinese. I guess you are taking Japan side since your girlfriend is from Japan and you have been living in Japan. I guess you don't really know what is going on behind and wrote such hatred attitude toward Korean and Chinese. You are educated man. I don't think it is smart to hear one side story and make a decision. I don't think you have never been thought from Korean or Chinses point of view. I would really suggest you to learn all the fact before you decide what is wrong and right.

Best Regards.

My God, Issac,

you obviously learned your history from a Chinese cereal box! This post combined with the Tibet and Taiwan post is really over the top.

It's no wonder the Japanese Foreign Minister called the Chinese "scary."

I'm even more amused by your followup posting against strong Japanese foreign policy - which by the way, is largely a result of the Japanese government and poeple getting tired of hearing c**p from China and Korea about WWII. I guess 18 official apologies are not enough. I guess the billions of yen that pour in China from Japanese companies and subsidy/loan support are not enough.

The reality of the situation is a geopoliticla one. China wants to assert itself as the undisputed leader in Asia. Japan is in the way. So China has reheated the textbook issue and the vists by the Japanese PM to Yasukuni jinja in order to stave off Japan's bid for a permanent seat on the U.N. Security Council. The Chinese governemnt didn't apologize for the recent riots and protests in China which resulted in injuries to two Japanese students and the looting of Japanese business. Futher, China hasn't apologized for recent incursions into Japanese territorial waters yb the Chinese navy (submarine incident last year). With Chinese funding for military programs skyrocketing and the government in Beijing all but encouraging anti-Japanese sentiment, I completly sympathize with the Japanese. I hope they get balls and eliminate the clause in their constitution which prevents a standing army and I further hpe they stand up to the bullys of Asia (China and North Korea).

With regard to the islands (there is a disputed one vis-a-vis China and another with Korea) in specific, I would love to see Japanese troops occupy the island and give both China and Korea the finger.

[KevinF]

No Rainmaker,

I don't have a side save the side of fairness. Yes, I have lived in Japan, and yes, my gf is Japanese, but this in no way shaped my answer. I can look Japanese people in the eye and explain how I firmly stand behind the use of atomic weapons in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and I am harsh in my cirticism of unfiar trade practices by any nation.

My statements should not be read as "hatred" against China or Korea.

Looking at the situation objectively, which is what I try to do, I do see China twisting history to position themselves against Japan in the Asia of the next 20 years. China complains about Japanese textbooks and is unwilling to print the truth in their own. As there is no free press in China, and as all textbooks are printed by the state, current anti-Japanese sentiment is plainly a result of a long, well-planned campaign against Japan. The political ramifications are clear and China can only gain from any anti-Japanese sentiment. It seems interesting that the largest anti-Japanese riots ever in China came just as Japan is pushing with Germany for a reorganization of the U.N. Security Council and a permanent seat within.

I would love to see a more powerful Japan - not for the sake of it, but as a hedge against Chinese expansionism and Asian dominance. This is in the interests of world stability. I would hope that most could see the value of having a powerful counterbalance to China in Asia - and the reality is that only Japan has the potential to do it.

[KevinF]

Addendum: I do know the other side. Japan is responsible for numerous and horrendous events in both Korea and China during WWII (60 years ago). China signed away rights to pursue monetary gain or settlements from Japan over 20 years ago, and I wonder if anyone could tally for us the amount of moeny that has poured into China through Japanese support and Japanese companies?

Hey, by the way, when the tsunami hit southern asia, didn't the Japanese government donate the most of any nation save the U.S. (and then, only because the U.S. tsunami relief was a combined government and private charity effort)? Where were the benevolent Chinese and Korean governments? Try reading this article: China Fails the Tsunami Test

Further, I would consider supporting China in its anti-Japanese stand the moment the PRC revises their textbooks with a fair and balanced view of Mao's "Great Leap Forward" and the Invasion and occupation of Tibet. How many tanks have to roll over students or how many monks have to be thrown into prison before people realize that China is not the peaceful nation of toy-producing elves they would wish you to believe?

I'll side with the Japanese Foreign minister for now: China *is* scary.

[KevinF]

To return the discussion to the issue of the original posting, I find the official position of the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affaris quite interesting:

The Issue of Takeshima

The history of Takeshima/Dokdoh from the Korean perspective is here:

Dokdo: A Profile

The liberal Asahi-Shimbun has a fairly balanced view of things:

History Lesson: Heart of the Matter

Read the above and make up your own minds.

[rainmaker]

Kevin, it has been my experience that American people who have lived in Japan does not learn about Asia but they just learn only about Japan. I call this Japanized. I have often seen them they criticizing other Asian countries or even worse they looking down on Chinese and Japanese more than Japanese themselves. Anyway, it is your decision to take which side you will be.

But Let me tell you why you are not being objective, Kevin.

My statements should not be read as "hatred" against China or Korea.
=> You wrote "With regard to the islands (there is a disputed one vis-a-vis China and another with Korea) in specific, I would love to see Japanese troops occupy the island and give both China and Korea the finger."
-> To me and other Korean and Chinese, this is hatred comment.

Looking at the situation objectively, which is what I try to do, I do see China twisting history to position themselves against Japan in the Asia of the next 20 years.
=> Read this. Both China and Korea is not twisting fact. It is Japanese government who is twisting international history. You are not being objective again.
http://www.ericdigests.org/2003-1/japan.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/1319495.stm

I would love to see a more powerful Japan - not for the sake of it, but as a hedge against Chinese expansionism and Asian dominance.
=> I strongly disagree with this. History repeats often. Why do other Asian countries and Americans have to rely on Japan as hedging against China ? Why do we need two bullies instead of one ?

I do know the other side. Japan is responsible for numerous and horrendous events in both Korea and China during WWII (60 years ago).
=> Yes, you do know but you didn't experience the pain. For you, 60 years can be long but for some of our grandfather and grandmother, 60 years is very short. If your parents were beheaded or raped by Japanese soldier 60 years ago, can you forget about it? Would you appreciate that if I tell you to forget about it and move on ? Also, we still see some old ladies who were forced to go to war and become a sex slave. Read this article.
http://www.china.org.cn/english/FR/9903.htm

China signed away rights to pursue monetary gain or settlements from Japan over 20 years ago, and I wonder if anyone could tally for us the amount of moeny that has poured into China through Japanese support and Japanese companies?
=> Korean and Chinese government does not want only apologies or monetary gain but they want Japanese government to act. Everytime, we are about to forget about war and move on, Japanese government always bring back other issues like textbook and Dokto.

Read the above and make up your own minds.
=> I have read such discussion since when I was 12 years old and I have made up my mind. I just hope you too take read both side and look at their history before you make up your mind. I don't think you have listened both side yet.

Finally, yes, I am Korean and I love my country. Question is do I hate Japanese ? No. I love people and culture of Japan. I used to travel to Japan every month for two years and have made many friends. I love my Japanese Kendo sensei, sempai and friends. I just don't agree with Japanese government policy toward Asian nation.
.

[rainmaker]

If you want to know what happened during Japanese invasion to Korea, you can click this link.

Warning !! This is very cruel photos and I do not recommend underage & pregnent people to click this link.

http://nojum.com/japan/japan.html

[KevinF]

Rainmaker,

Kudos for a well-thought and good effort. I enjoy this.

First of all, I already admited the Japanese Imperial army did horrible things. For this, the Japanese people and government were punished with invasion, bombings, and a "regime change" in 1945 that included the only use of atmoic weapons on a population. Do you think it would be fair for U.S. leaders in 2050 to demand apologies and reparations from Afghanistan because of the 9/11 terrorist attacks?

Let me add to this by saying horrible things were done by both the allies and the axis powers during the second world war. While I defend the use of atomic weapons by the U.S. as a logical course of action which may have saved many lives at the expense of others, I deplore the firebombing of Dresden and the virtual apathy of the U.S. and its allies with regard to Germany's Final Solution. Furthermore, as the son of immigrants, I recall listening to stories of the horrendous treatment by the Russian army in the Czech Republic - random shootings, tossing babies out of windows, raping of women, etc.

You say that 60 years is very short. I say that nations should look to the current and future situation rather than live in the past. Shold nations take your view of things, there would never be peace.

As Koren troops are currently illegally occupying Takeshima, it would be a horrible incident to actually see Japanese troops land on the island, however, I sympathize with Japan in the current power struggle in Asia. My advocating Japenese posession by menas of troops is not a comment of hatred. If you assume this, then Korean occupation of the islands by means of force would also be a statement of hatred? Well, my friend, this is sadly the status quo.

Both China and Korea are not twisting facts? Excuse me? Listen, I have seen the textbooks in question as I was there from 1999 to 2002. First of all, the textbooks are used in less than 1% of all junior high schools in Japan. Secondly, the passages are questionable. My answer to this is, and always will be: any fair comparison of textbooks from all three nations would find that Chinese textboooks are state-sponsered communist propaganda and that Korean textbooks twist the truth regarding the current issues in Noth Korea to appease the North. Japanese textbooks are largely very good, and if anything, promote a feeling that all war is bad, leading the current generation of Japanese people to be generally very pacifist.

I guess your position is that a strong bully in China is better than having two equally powerful naitons in Asia (Japan and China)? Rainmaker, that makes no sense. China holds its close ties with North Korea over the South, and will always have this as a bargaining chip, so I don't think anyone can see South Korea being the counterweight to China in Asia. It they could do it, I would advocate that just as soon as I would advocate Japan. You see, any sane person would see China with its natural resources, enormous army and vast population as a *threat*. You apparently see China as a benevolent great uncle.

You siad: "Korean and Chinese government does not want only apologies or monetary gain but they want Japanese government to act."

Eh? Act in what way? If not by apologizing or by giving money, that what would you like them to do? I mean, we are talking about a nation that only has a self-defense force, right? A nation that by its constitution, cannot take military action? I wish China and Korea would have something like that in thier constitutions..... As it is, China can't keep from using their military to threaten Taiwan.

Rainmaker, you accuse me of bais because I lived in Japan etc., yet argue that you hold the truth. Then you go on to say that you are Korean and you love your country.... Hey, just to let you know, I was a foreigner in Japan..... who is biased again?

By the way, I'll just toss this in for fun. My father spent two years protecting South Korea from North Korea while stationed there in the 1980s. He had only nice things to say about Korea and its people. We have discussed the issue plenty, and even he (who has never been to Japan) has indicated that the Korean hatred for Japan, especially amongst the younger generation who had no direct knowledge of the events, is extreme and promoted by the Korean government (which was also my argument for China). I think Korea should only be allowed to speak to issues of aggression and war once they become a complete nation, or at least the North stops testing rockets shot illegally over other nations.

[samurai999]

Rainmaker,


Let me add to this by saying horrible things were done by both the allies and the axis powers during the second world war.

People really have to understand exactly this statement. Atrocities aren't just limited to one country. EVERY country is guilty of something in the past. It is these politicians that really don't want to admit it and force the agenda on other countries to apologize. Its not that the atrocities committed were bad, its just that every country has to fess up to them.


TIm

[KevinF]

Tim,

would 18 times be enough?

[JSchmidt]

Ah yes..the wonderfully free & democratic China:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4617657.stm

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/chn-180505-action-eng

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index...pen&of=ENG-CHN

[samurai999]

Tim,

would 18 times be enough?

whoops, mistyped. What i meant is "not that the atrocities committed WEREN'T bad"...

But from the level of schoolbook and media coverage I have seen, each atrocity is horrible within itself. EACH ONE IS JUST AS BAD. Just as intolerable. Just as unacceptable. Thats what i meant.

Tim

[rainmaker]

...................................

[drizzt]

People really have to understand exactly this statement. Atrocities aren't just limited to one country. EVERY country is guilty of something in the past. It is these politicians that really don't want to admit it and force the agenda on other countries to apologize. Its not that the atrocities committed weren't bad, its just that every country has to fess up to them.


TIm

Nicely put. when they happen, most "atrocities" are not even viewed as bad

I saw something earlier, and beleive it to be a valid point. Why does the media only show the bad things a country does. have we sunk that low as to only enjoy bad?you never see a story about the acts of kindness soldiers are doing in Iraq. UN peace keepers, or red cross vollunteers go into african country's and risk there lives everyday to bring food and aid to starving people. Yet our lovely liberal news media seems content only to cover trash like the michael jackson trial. There greatest joy in life is to talk about the EVIL US government, or for that matter the evil governments of the world...............

why have we sunk this low? is it only the US media thats gotten this bad or is it a global problem?


sorry for striking out on an aside to the main topic, but i think the general philisophical point fits in well here. Maybe i should revive the political debate thread on this subject..........

[rainmaker]

Kevin-san,

First of all, I already admited the Japanese Imperial army did horrible things. For this, the Japanese people and government were punished with invasion, bombings, and a "regime change" in 1945 that included the only use of atmoic weapons on a population. Do you think it would be fair for U.S. leaders in 2050 to demand apologies and reparations from Afghanistan because of the 9/11 terrorist attacks?
=> If Afghanistan change the textbook and educate their childen that it was act of world freedom, yes, US should demand apologies… If they claim Hawaii is part of Afghanistan, yes. If they claim they raped American woman in order to boost soldiers morale, yes...


Let me add to this by saying horrible things were done by both the allies and the axis powers during the second world war. While I defend the use of atomic weapons by the U.S. as a logical course of action which may have saved many lives at the expense of others, I deplore the firebombing of Dresden and the virtual apathy of the U.S. and its allies with regard to Germany's Final Solution. Furthermore, as the son of immigrants, I recall listening to stories of the horrendous treatment by the Russian army in the Czech Republic - random shootings, tossing babies out of windows, raping of women, etc.
=> I am not talking about US or other region. I cannot talk behalf of Czech since I don't even know their history.


You say that 60 years is very short. I say that nations should look to the current and future situation rather than live in the past. Shold nations take your view of things, there would never be peace.
=> If you don't fix the problem and rather trying to hide the problem, how our relationship will improve ? You may say when can you forgive Japan, but all I can say it will take long time to heal such wounds. History itself repeat. Japan invades Korean numerous times through the history. That is why we cannot just forget the past and move on.

As Koren troops are currently illegally occupying Takeshima, it would be a horrible incident to actually see Japanese troops land on the island, however, I sympathize with Japan in the current power struggle in Asia.
=> You are assuming Tokdo is Japanse island and therefore Korean troop is illegally occyupying it. Let me tell you my point. It is Korean land and we are protecting our land from Japan.

My advocating Japenese posession by menas of troops is not a comment of hatred. If you assume this, then Korean occupation of the islands by means of force would also be a statement of hatred? Well, my friend, this is sadly the status quo.
=> I have learned since elementary schools that giving finger is symbol of hatred. Especially when you are ignorant. Korean occupation is not a statement of hatred, it is statement of protecting Korean land.


First of all, the textbooks are used in less than 1% of all junior high schools in Japan.
=> Even 1%, it is wrong.

Secondly, the passages are questionable. My answer to this is, and always will be: any fair comparison of textbooks from all three nations would find that Chinese textboooks are state-sponsered communist propaganda and that Korean textbooks twist the truth regarding the current issues in Noth Korea to appease the North.
=> Yes, we might have changed our domestic history but we never twisted fact about other international history.

Japanese textbooks are largely very good, and if anything, promote a feeling that all war is bad, leading the current generation of Japanese people to be generally very pacifist.
=> You must learned with 99% text book. But then again, I don't assume you read all 99% text book.


I guess your position is that a strong bully in China is better than having two equally powerful naitons in Asia (Japan and China)? Rainmaker, that makes no sense. China holds its close ties with North Korea over the South, and will always have this as a bargaining chip, so I don't think anyone can see South Korea being the counterweight to China in Asia. It they could do it, I would advocate that just as soon as I would advocate Japan. You see, any sane person would see China with its natural resources, enormous army and vast population as a *threat*. You apparently see China as a benevolent great uncle.
=> You are assuming that China and S. Korea ties are not strong. Maybe. But let's not forget that South Korean and China's trade is about $6.3B and 50% of total Korean investment is send to China last year. North Korea and China ? About $1B/year. Can you still say China holds its close ties with North Korea ???


You siad: "Korean and Chinese government does not want only apologies or monetary gain but they want Japanese government to act."
Eh? Act in what way? If not by apologizing or by giving money, that what would you like them to do? I mean, we are talking about a nation that only has a self-defense force, right? A nation that by its constitution, cannot take military action? I wish China and Korea would have something like that in thier constitutions..... As it is, China can't keep from using their military to threaten Taiwan.
=> Yes, they verbally apologize 18 times. But they still refuse to fix the problem. Such as textbook, comfort woman, Bio weapon testing on human, Tokdo.. Do you think it is real apologies ???

Rainmaker, you accuse me of bais because I lived in Japan etc., yet argue that you hold the truth. Then you go on to say that you are Korean and you love your country.... Hey, just to let you know, I was a foreigner in Japan..... who is biased again?
=> True, because of I am Korean, I can be very bised. But you don’t know the all the fact and still taking Japanese side. I call that biased.


By the way, I'll just toss this in for fun. My father spent two years protecting South Korea from North Korea while stationed there in the 1980s. He had only nice things to say about Korea and its people. We have discussed the issue plenty, and even he (who has never been to Japan) has indicated that the Korean hatred for Japan, especially amongst the younger generation who had no direct knowledge of the events, is extreme and promoted by the Korean government (which was also my argument for China).

=> See ? Koreans still cannot get over Japanese invastion. Is it Korean's fault ? It is not only Korean government saying Japanese were bad but we also heard very often how Japanse soldiers killed our grandfather and grandmother for 36 years. Again, have you ever heard from those Korean people about how they have treated ? If you didn't, you just don't know.

I think Korea should only be allowed to speak to issues of aggression and war once they become a complete nation, or at least the North stops testing rockets shot illegally over other nations.[/QUOTE]

Is this means we are not allowed speak the issue of aggression and war ?? What kind of theory is that ? Read what you wrote and try to understand. Is it your theory that once North Korea stops rocket shots, Japanese can speak to South Korea about Textbook, Tokdo, comfort woman and others ???

Yes, I even myself, used to hate Japanse when I was teenagers. I grow up since then. I try to appreciate both side. I tried to learn Japanese culture and people. I have found beauty in it too. However, let's not be confused. That doesn't mean I agree with their foreign policy. Some Koreans telling me that I love Japan culture too much. I have always tell them that it has broaden my view of people. It is not people that is cruel. It is their ignorance that harms others...

[KevinF]

Rainmaker:

from Dictionary.com: Bias = 1. A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment. 2. An unfair act or policy stemming from prejudice.

In your last two posts, you have admitted your pro-Korea bias based on your education, cultural background and national pride. I side with Japan regarding general issues such as constitutional reform to allow a standing army, increased responsibility in the world such as a permanent seat on the UNSec Council, etc. I grew up here in the US and in Europe, and have no such cultural baggage, and I was in the very environment you cirticize, allowing me, as an outsider, to gain a broader perspective of the issues. I insist my stands are not biased in favor of Japan in the sense of the definitions listed above, but you have made a good argument for your opinions being prejudiced.

You wrote: => If you don't fix the problem and rather trying to hide the problem, how our relationship will improve ? You may say when can you forgive Japan, but all I can say it will take long time to heal such wounds. History itself repeat. Japan invades Korean numerous times through the history. That is why we cannot just forget the past and move on.

Rainmaker, there is a point of diminishing returns. There is a point when the Prime Ministers of Japan will say, "hey, look, we don't want to hear about this anymore." The Japanese people will support this because they will be fed up as well. By the way, this is already happening. Japan has been a peaceful nation for the past 60 years. This is more than Korea can say, as the two Koreas have not even signed a peace treaty and their nation is fractured in two. Officially, only a "Cease Fire" is in effect in the Koreas. Almost every year, there is some violent incident in the waters off of Korea with North and South Korean ships firing on each other.

Seen obvectively, in comparison to the violence in Korea, Japan has been a totally innocent force in the world for the past 60 years....

You wrote: "I have learned since elementary schools that giving finger is symbol of hatred. Especially when you are ignorant. Korean occupation is not a statement of hatred, it is statement of protecting Korean land."

Giving the finger is a statement of defiance and annoyance, not particularly of hatred.

Regarding the textbooks in specific, you seem to argue now that if its an internal matter, its okay for a nations' textbooks to be full of lies. Its only not okay if the lies in question are about other nations.... hmmm... let me think about this.... no indians were killed in the US policy of Manifest Destiny. Wait, even better yet, lets let Germany not mention the Holocaust becasue its an "internal" matter, right? Is that really your position?

I'm just asking to be fair. Most Jpaanese textbooks are generally fair about history, both national and international, in comparision to the treatment on the Korean war and the Korean division in Korean textbooks and 100x more fair in comparision to Chinese textbooks in their discussion about just about anything (assuming you can measure fairness in numerical quantities).

By the way, yes, of all nations in the world, North Korea has closeest ties with China. This has created problems for China when North Koreans flee into China and then attempt to make it to South Korea, sually by slipping into the embassy of some sympathetic nation. Further, South Korean and Chinese economic ties are strong, but the political ones are somewhat weak. My position on this is to say that the Koreas are in no position to bargiain with China, or to assume a more dominant role in Asia. Korea really can't because of the afore mentioned unresolved war, so that really only leaves Japan as a hedge against unchecked Chinese aggression.

You got my theory wrong at the bottom of your post. I said that Korea should only talk to Japan about violence and aggression after they finish or resolve their own war. Until Korea is reunited and peaceful for 60 years, I don't really think they should be in any position to dictate anything to anyone...

By the way, in your last paragraph, you kind of take a stab at showing how you are actually fair regarding Japan, because you enjoy some Japanese culture. In so doing, you mention that your Korean friends berate you for it. This shows me that (assuming your friends are representative of average Koreans), many - if not most - Koreans harbor hatred for modern Japan. It's kind of sad when a country hates another for the sins of generations past.