Dok-Doh

[ISSAC RU]

Rainmaker,

Thanks for your link to the article by Jennifer Lind. It was interesting.

Doing a search of her name through Google, I cam across an interesting article in the Journal of the Air Force Associatioin that I would like to share with you:

I noticed a few interesting quotes:

Fueled by superheated economic expansion, the mainland communist giant (China) has launched an aggressive military modernization program and is testing the limits of its military reach. In 2004, for instance, Chinese surveillance and reconnaissance vessels conducted more than 30 illegal incursions into Japanese territorial waters.

Hmmm... what was I saying a couple of posts ago about Chinese aggression?

Here's another: There are even reports that China, flexing its growing economic and military muscle, has begun demanding that Australia end or modify its 50-year-old alliance with the United States.

Well, I don't want to distract from the main Takeshima discussion, but this is exactly what I was taking about when I mentioned my support for the removal of Article 9 of the Japanese constitution and for Japan to assume a larger, more normal role in Asia.

Ausises are now our friend , take that Uncle Sam .....
FTA between AUS and China would benefit AUS around 50 something
bilion dollars every year.
WUhahahahahahah.........You can't stop us.......
We can see thru Capitalist like no-one else..

Sry about going away from the topic , Ignore my comments and
please continue the posts about The Korean territory issue.

[KevinF]

Issac,

Learn to spell. Learn some grammar. Then come back and talk okay?

Australia has financial ties with China, but has virtually nothing in commen with the "mainland communist giant" culturally, politically and historically.

Oh wait, you said something intelligent: "ignore my comments." I apologize, I should read your intelligent-sounding and cleverly-crafted posts more carefully.

[rainmaker]

Kevin-san,
Sorry, if have become too personal on this issue. I just believe that Dokto is part of our country and I want to protect our land. I have to admit that there are few incident that I was not respecting your opinion. Please accept my apology. I cannot blame that you have chosen to take Japanese side due to many reasons. It is your choice. But I am only asking you to listen both side before you make your judgment.

If Japan's argument has validity, and Takeshima is an integral part of Japan, then the Cario Conference would in no way apply to Takeshima. Further, the islands were not taken from Korea, and the discussion below should demonstrate why Takeshima is an integral part of Japan.
=> Yup !! Everyone agrees on this part. That is why everyone is trying to show historical proof who owns this island prior to 1914.

History issue

I guess you already read answers.com.

Japan's claim: Takeshima Tokai Yuraiki Bassho Hikae (??????????), written by ?ya Kyuemon (??????), records that in 1618 the Tokugawa Shogunate granted the ?ya and Murakawa families of H?ki province (modern Tottori) the permission to take feudal tenure of Ulleung-do, known at the time as Takeshima in Japanese. The families were using the sea around the islet for fishing as late as 1696. On the seaway to Ulleung-do were the Liancourt Rocks, known as Matsushima (??) by the Japanese, which were used as an intermediate port of call by their fishermen.

=> They used to give out permission when they travel to foreign region. If they are fishing in their own land, why do they need permission ?

Korean's claim:
-The first written records on Tokdo are traced to Silla pon'gi (Annals of the Kings of Silla) and Yoljon (Biographies) both in Samguk sagi (History of the Three Kingdoms). These entries state that Tokdo became a part of the Korean territory in 512 A.D. when Usan'guk was subjuated by Silla. Some Japanese scholars question whether Usan'guk comprised Tokdo as part of its territory when the country was brought under the dominion of Silla. To this query the Man'gi yoram (Handbook of state Affairs) of 1808 quotes the Yojiji (Gazette) in its chapter on military administration: " Usando and Tokdo all belonged to Usan'guk, and Usando is what Japanese call Matsushima."
The Japanese scholars concede to the fact that up until 1900 Ullungdo had been called Takeshima and Tokdo, Matsushima, by Japanese. As for the Korean appellation Tokdo was originally called Usando implying its derivation from Usan'guk.

Around the end of Koryo, waegu (Japanese pirates) had become increasingly rampant and plundered coastal areas. As Ullungdo had been subject to their frequent and severe pillage, King T'aejong of the Choson dynasty sought the safety of the islanders by evacuating them and began to assume a vacant island policy toward Ullungdo.

Some of them escaped to Ullungdo for re-settlement, but were always compelled to return. In this process Tokdo acquired the official designation of Usando.

Although the Chosun dynasty followed this vacant island policy for Ullungdo and Tokdo since the time of King T'aejong -- the rock islands of Tokdo were uninhabitable anyway, this did not mean they had been abandoned. The administrative policy was adopted out of necessity to ensure the safety and security of the island's previous inhabitants.
Following in the footsteps of King T'aejong King Sejong also adhered to this policy, but confirmed Korea's title to these islands in the Sejong sillok (Annals of King Sejong) as follows:
The two islands of Usan and Mullung are located in the sea due east of the hyon (country), and they are not far from each other, so one is visible from the other on a fine day. They were called Usan'guk during Silla period.
Usan refers to Tokdo, and Mullung to Ullung, and the hyon to uljinhyon (country).

Japan Claim
Even if we assumed that the Japanese incorporation of the islands into Shimane Prefecture was illegal (or fell under the purvue of the Cairo Conference - your point 6-C), it is obvious that Korea was not in control of the island at this time. Further, there was no effort to exercise control (what the Japanese Foreign Ministry calls "effective control" over the islands in the press statement of 2004 listed in a previous post).
=> There has been many records that people used to live in this island before 1905. You cannot just take over the someone else's island because no one lives there. Do you know how many islands in US that are not in controlled. Will all those island can be subject to be claimed by other countries ??? In addition, On October 25, 1900, the Korean Empire issued Korean Government Imperial Ordinance No. 41, incorporating Dokdo as part of Korean Empire.
=> Also think about political weakness at that time. Japan is equipped with modern military equipment and ready to invades to mainland. Korea didn't have enough power to refuse such Prefecture.

The Map Issue
I am actually being really fair with the above use of quotations. It basically states that there are competing maps. Some are incomplete, some are confused about the location of the islands, and other correctly identify the island are Japanese or as Koreans depending on the authors and purpose.
=> Take a look at these maps. You can see that some of Japanese Map also agree that Dokto is part of Korean territory. There are many maps made by Japan that Dokto is part of Korea. Of course you can say Japanese were confused too….
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?...&curtab=2222_1
- Paldochongdo, Korean map published on 1531
- Early 1700 Map
- 1757 Korean map, Jung SangGi
- 1785, Japanese map, Hayasi
- 1882, Japanese map, by Japanese
- 1882, Great Japan Map, by Japanese
- 1886, Morikinseki map, by Japanese
- 1878, Bungyunsando, by Japanese
- 1936, by Japanese government

Why won't Korea let the International Courts settle the issue if their claims are so rock solid (pun intended)?
=> Simple. How do you guarantee that it will be fair judgment. We don't think it will be fair judgment since Japan is still policy & economically stronger than Korea. Once it goes to court, Japan can buy vote from other country. You cannot ignore their lobbying ability.

I would love to see a more powerful Japan. My advocating Japanese possession by means of troops is not a comment of hatred.
=> You also have been keep telling me that you are sorry for Japan and you want to give them more power. They military budget per year is $5B, 2nd largest spending in the world. They have 150K army, 45K navy, 45K air force. 203 F15 and so on. It is almost impossible for Russia, China and N. Korea to invade Japan. How much power do they need ? Do you want to give them a right to invade other countries ? Japanese are not stupid. They are already developing nuclear weapon with help of US. Koreans already scared of such aggression of Japanese.

Finally, I am not scared of regular Japanese people. I am scared of Japanese extremist within the government. I am sure I don't need to explain why..

[ISSAC RU]

Kevin-san,

I would love to see a more powerful Japan. My advocating Japanese possession by means of troops is not a comment of hatred.
=> You also have been keep telling me that you are sorry for Japan and you want to give them more power. They military budget per year is $5B, 2nd largest spending in the world. They have 150K army, 45K navy, 45K air force. 203 F15 and so on. It is almost impossible for Russia, China and N. Korea to invade Japan. How much power do they need ? Do you want to give them a right to invade other countries ? Japanese are not stupid. They are already developing nuclear weapon with help of US. Koreans already scared of such aggression of Japanese.

Finally, I am not scared of regular Japanese people. I am scared of Japanese extremist within the government. I am sure I don't need to explain why..

Japan is a very scary country . Its military budget is 2nd in the World.
Right after U.S.A.
Stop Japanese aggression before it is too late.

[samurai999]

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolit...litarySpending

I smell BS Isaac... China has bigger military budget than Japan.. And it is CHINA that is 3rd to the US.. in addition, the US usually spends money more on technologies rather than massing troops.

Stop your ultranationalism and chill.

TIm

[Berugijin]

Japan is a very scary country . Its military budget is 2nd in the World.
Right after U.S.A.
Stop Japanese aggression before it is too late.

"Among non-Nato nations, Japan spent US $46.9 billion on defense in 2003, The People's Republic of China, US$ 32.8 billion, and Russia, US $13 billion, (5%, 4%, and 1% of the world total, respectively)."

(According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_budget, admittedly a questionable source)

"Japan spends about US$46 billion on its military yearly, ranking among the top five military spenders in the world [1] (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0904504.html)."

(According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan#Modern_era)

Military expenditures - dollar figure: $45.841 billion (2004)

(According to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/....html#Military)

However, from the CIA World Factbook the $45 billion is only 1% of the GDP. When we look at China in the Factbook we see that they spent "$67.49 billion (2004)" and this is " 4.3% (2004)" of the GDP.

These numbers can be viewed in yet another way: Japan has "males age 18-49: 22,234,663 (2005 est.)" fit for military service. China has "males age 18-49: 281,240,272 (2005 est.)" fit for service.

I wonder about that Japanese agression, where is it? You mean that they want to invade Taiwan? Or how they annexed Tibet? Oh wait that was China! I'm afraid that the Japanese are about as aggressive as big pink fluffy bunnies, hellbent on keeping the Wa (I don't think this involves shooting and that sort of things). You can make the bushido-argument like in WW2, but the average Japanese rather watches baseball than practice kendo (which is just so smelly).

[rainmaker]

Sorry. My currency exchange rate was wrong. It is $44B, in 2003.

Asia Times, Aug 19, 2004: US spending alone has risen from $296 billion in 1997 to $336 billion in 2002 and $379 billion in 2003. In contrast, Japan spends an average of about $44 billion annually on its military, France about $40 billion, the United Kingdom about $35 billion and China about $26 billion.

They military budget per year is $5B, 2nd largest spending in the world.

[rainmaker]

War does not start because of aggressive people. I believe it is can be caused by many other reason, including politics, ideology, ignorance and many others. I don't believe Japanese people prior WW2 enjoyed killing people.

I wonder about that Japanese agression, where is it? You mean that they want to invade Taiwan? Or how they annexed Tibet? Oh wait that was China! I'm afraid that the Japanese are about as aggressive as big pink fluffy bunnies, hellbent on keeping the Wa (I don't think this involves shooting and that sort of things). You can make the bushido-argument like in WW2, but the average Japanese rather watches baseball than practice kendo (which is just so smelly).

[Yaiba]

Japan is a very scary country . Its military budget is 2nd in the World.
Right after U.S.A.
Stop Japanese aggression before it is too late.

Issac Ru... I hope you really are a 16-year old and not an adult because then I could forgive you for your silly comments about "Japanese aggession". *Sigh*... I understand that you're proud of your Chinese heritage, and that's OK, but your posts about anything to do with Japan is bordering on "hate"... All you're doing is just alienating yourself from everyone else.

Firstly, I think you fail to realise that Japan has had a pacifist constitution in place since the end of WW2, which means that Japan does not allow its military to attack another soverign state. Secondly, Japan's military is a self defence force, which means that it cannot engage in combat unless it is under direct threat by another military aggressor. Thirdly, Japan's military expenditure reflects its need to continually upgrade and be prepared for a potential war in an unsteady region where it is surrounded by countries such as North Korea and China, both of which are certainly not close friends of Japan. Also, they had to worry about the USSR up until the early-90's, and even though it is Russia now, Japan does not have an official peace treaty with them yet. Lastly, Japan is the 2nd largest economy in the world and, therefore, it cannot afford to neglect its military (regardless of its strong ties with the US) as it is too big a gamble.

Kevin F... I understand your point of view about wanting Japan to play a more significant military role in East Asia but I do not agree that Japan should revise/denounce its pacifist constitution. Japan does not need another Hiroshima or Nagasaki incident, nor does it need another fire-bombing of Tokyo and its major cities... and for this reason, the majority of sensible Japanese citizens will not allow this to happen (has anyone seen what Hiroshima is like each year on August 6th?). Many even voiced their concerns and objections to the Japanese government's decision to send military engineers to Iraq, even though these engineers are there on non-combat humanitarian duties.

Japan has changed so much for the better in the last 60 years... and it disappoints me to see people still trying to compare today's Japan to the Japan of pre-1945.

[KevinF]

Yaiba,

Thank you - finally a well-balanced, moderate and eloquent opinion (which to me, carries more weight not only because fo your expression, but because of your geographic location).

Issac Ru is normally off the deep end when it comes to these postings. Do a search of his posts to find such gems as "the Dali Llama = Osama bin Laden" etc.). It's fine though, this is a flames thread, after all.

In principle, I would love to agree with you, Yaiba. As a matter of princple, the fewer the nations with a capacity to destroy the better... however, this neglects the current geopolitical situation in Asia. It would seem that you and I both agree that China poses a threat to the stability of the region. In addition, the threat of North Korean silliness can easily steal the headlines any given day of the week. South Korean and North Korean ships routinely exchange fire and the fragile cease fire has errupted into a number of incidents across the decades.

The argument is simple: why shouldn't a peaceful nation (possible the only nation in Asia to maintain peace for the last 60 years) be denied the fundamental national rights of a standing army?

China obviously has one - complete with conscription as well, and they have used it (Tibet, downtown Beijing) or threatened to use it (Taiwan), as has Korea (in 1980, when ROK troops were use to quell attempted rebellion in addition to the unresolved civil war). No one has really mentioned Russia here in this thread as well, as Russia is not a peaceful nation and even continues to occupy islands stolen from Japan north of Hokkaido.

Further, as the UN continues to ask Japan to play a more active role in international peace-keeping efforts, which by definition, require deployment of military forces, Japan may have to face a change in the constitution or be unable to legally meet U.N. calls for assistance.

As for the rest of you out there who justify your positions by claiming that "history repeats itself" and we must be ever viligant of Japanese aggression, I would simply argue that I hope the following more recent Asian history does not repeat itself:

- Indo-Pakistani War of 1947
- North Korea, backed by China, invades South Korea, 1950-1953 (resulting in a loss of over 2 million lives)
- First Indochina War 1946-1954 (resulting in appx. 400,000 dead)
- China invades a foreign, soverigen nation (Tibet) 1950 (relocation, torture and persecution of Tibetans continues today)
- Sino-Indian War of 1962 (border conflict between China and India
- Indo-Pakistani War of 1965
- Second Indochina War 1957-1975 (resulting in 500,000 dead)
- Civil War in Pakistan 1971 (1.5 million dead)
- Indo-Pakistani War of 1971
- military rule in Thailand starting in 1976 (hundreds killed by paramilitary)
- Khmer Rouge in Cambodia 1975-1979 (resulting in 1.7 million deaths)
- Martial Law in Pakistan 1977-1985
- Vietnamese occupation of Cambodia 1980-1993 (a few more dead)
- Chinese soldiers massacre student protestors in 1989 (440 - 7000 students killed)
- Kargil Conflict between India and Pakistan 1999 (over 3,000 dead)

IMHO, most Asian nations do not even have the right to criticize Japan - a nation that has enjoyed peace and stability for 60 years.

[ISSAC RU]

Yaiba,


- Indo-Pakistani War of 1947
- North Korea, backed by China, invades South Korea, 1950-1953 (resulting in a loss of over 2 million lives)
- First Indochina War 1946-1954 (resulting in appx. 400,000 dead)
- China invades a foreign, soverigen nation (Tibet) 1950 (relocation, torture and persecution of Tibetans continues today)
- Sino-Indian War of 1962 (border conflict between China and India
- Indo-Pakistani War of 1965
- Second Indochina War 1957-1975 (resulting in 500,000 dead)
- Civil War in Pakistan 1971 (1.5 million dead)
- Indo-Pakistani War of 1971
- military rule in Thailand starting in 1976 (hundreds killed by paramilitary)
- Khmer Rouge in Cambodia 1975-1979 (resulting in 1.7 million deaths)
- Martial Law in Pakistan 1977-1985
- Vietnamese occupation of Cambodia 1980-1993 (a few more dead)
- Chinese soldiers massacre student protestors in 1989 (440 - 7000 students killed)
- Kargil Conflict between India and Pakistan 1999 (over 3,000 dead)

IMHO, most Asian nations do not even have the right to criticize Japan - a nation that has enjoyed peace and stability for 60 years.

Please remember , because of the Japanese invasion in WWII , China
along suffered 35 millions people.More than 560 Billion US damage in side of China. Compare to those numbers you mentionedabove , this is how many times greater?
That is only in China , What about Japanese occupation in Korea from 1910-1945? The pacific countries? Phillipines...etc..
If you add everything together , it will be more than 50 Millions.
Do you think we should just forget about that ?
YOu comment of ''IMHO, most Asian nations do not even have the right to criticize Japan - a nation that has enjoyed peace and stability for 60 years''
just makes me wanna laught at your sense of foolishness.

[ISSAC RU]

"Among non-Nato nations, Japan spent US $46.9 billion on defense in 2003, The People's Republic of China, US$ 32.8 billion, and Russia, US $13 billion, (5%, 4%, and 1% of the world total, respectively)."

(According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_budget, admittedly a questionable source)

"Japan spends about US$46 billion on its military yearly, ranking among the top five military spenders in the world [1] (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0904504.html)."

(According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan#Modern_era)

Military expenditures - dollar figure: $45.841 billion (2004)

(According to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/....html#Military)

However, from the CIA World Factbook the $45 billion is only 1% of the GDP. When we look at China in the Factbook we see that they spent "$67.49 billion (2004)" and this is " 4.3% (2004)" of the GDP.

These numbers can be viewed in yet another way: Japan has "males age 18-49: 22,234,663 (2005 est.)" fit for military service. China has "males age 18-49: 281,240,272 (2005 est.)" fit for service.

I wonder about that Japanese agression, where is it? You mean that they want to invade Taiwan? Or how they annexed Tibet? Oh wait that was China! I'm afraid that the Japanese are about as aggressive as big pink fluffy bunnies, hellbent on keeping the Wa (I don't think this involves shooting and that sort of things). You can make the bushido-argument like in WW2, but the average Japanese rather watches baseball than practice kendo (which is just so smelly).

You believe everything that the americans say?
Havn't you learned lesson from Iraq yet ?
THe Americans invaded IRaq because of WMD..
Where is the WMD ?
Can they find it ? NO
Did they lie about the WMD thing? YES
Did they get away with it ? YES
Do you think they will lie to the public again? NOT the first time
DO you think they will use the same kind of lie to invade another
country in the world again? OF course , the answer is YES.

[samurai999]

ISSAC, you are an ultra nationalist and a straight up hater. if you hate Japan so much and afraid of their polices, why practice kendo? Why buy Japanese electronics? Why buy anything Japanese for that matter? If you are that pro-China, go buy a chinese car and drive that in Canada. Buy chinese electronics from a company that is BASED in china. (No.. Sony Panasonic, Toshiba, Sanyo, hitachi, and JVC are Jp companies.. sorry) Hell why don't you buy a chunk of Chinese land, supplant that in Canada, build your house out of Chinese wood, Chinese plastic, Chinese metal, and chinese stone so that you have every comfort of China there.

And where is the Japanese agression from present day Japan you are talking about? Whenever you talk about Japanese agression, you refer to the "Rape of Nanking", comfort women, etc. Which was when? 60yrs ago? Where is the evidence that Japan is massing their armies or preparing for an invasion? NOWHERE. Most of that money is spent on VERY EXPENSIVE hi tech defense mechanisms to protect Japan from crazy nonsensical people like you.

Tim

[rainmaker]

I thought most of those electronics are made in China anyway... Isn't it ???

Buy chinese electronics from a company that is BASED in china. (No.. Sony Panasonic, Toshiba, Sanyo, hitachi, and JVC are Jp companies.. sorry) Hell why don't you buy a chunk of Chinese land, supplant that in Canada, build your house out of Chinese wood, Chinese plastic, Chinese metal, and chinese stone so that you have every comfort of China there.

Tim

[KevinF]

Issac,

The point of my post is that after 1945, Japan has been a peaceful nation. Other nations, including both Koreas (who are still in a state of armed conflict), can't make that claim. Other nations in Asia haven't contributed to the U.N. like Japan has (who, behind the US, is responsible for paying the second largest amount of its operation budget).

I just wanted to remind everyone of the conflicts that have occured throughout Asia since the end of WWII. None of them had anything to do with Japan, who was busy defending itself from Godzilla and Kittychan (it lost that particular conflict).

The reality is that Tim is correct. Most Japanese are afraid of China (and very suspicious of Korea). Its ultranationalists like you that give them good cause.

The Japanese national soccer team just played North Korea to secure a berth in the 2006 World Cup. The game had to be held in Thailand with no fans because of fear of violence by aggressive Korean fanatics.

Issac, by the way, how was your post realted to the discussion? What does Iraq have to do with the Chinese military post you quote? By the way, you still haven't told me which Chinese university you are planning to attend...did you know that you can major in "Border Defense" at some Chinese universities? I could see you could really go far in that field...