What period in China's history...

[Light Samurai]

What period in China's history was the most influential in Japan's history? Because I'm wondering if I should get other books related to Sun-Tzu's Art of War. Thanks all.

[Musha]

I think the Japanese try to cover up there contact with other countries. Like the anual wars they had with China and Korea. China influenced Japans art and buildings when Japan was starting out but it wasn't a set thing you can tell the date of. Its like you asking when France most influenced England?

BTW The Sangoku shi is very popular in Japan, it was a war between three lords about 1800 years ago. There are afew games here, don't know about other countries. A good one I just bought is Shinsangokushi 3, the new one is too expencive for me .

[Optomitrist]

not wuite sure what time period. chinese swords were imported around 300ade give or take a couple hundred years. Besides that, the architecture came from the toaist thoughts of circular motion and lack of straight lines. Not to mension confucius. All of this around 500-600ADE. i dont know when buddhism hit though.

[jasmine]

What period in China's history was the most influential in Japan's history? Because I'm wondering if I should get other books related to Sun-Tzu's Art of War. Thanks all.

I think it was "TANG" dynasty.Chinese and Japanese communicated with each other frequently at that time.So a lot of food,clothes and something other artists appeared in Japanese from "TANG"

[Optomitrist]

I do know that in tokugawa's time (1500-1600's), silk was the crave. (not that you care). THe chinese would not allow traders from japan to dock in chinese harbors due to the japanese pirates. SO the only way they traded with china was through the new found westerners (dutch mostly). Didn't take long before the westerners screwed everything up and they kicked us all out for a couple hundred years. bummer.

[ISSAC RU]

the kihon that japanese are talking about is mostly on budo..
The original Kihon s ( Chinese kihon ) are mostly on warfares....

getting that Sun-Tzu book is not going to help you to any chinese history
unless you read and understand the period of ChunQiu period.

Chinese influence on Japan , you should start with the dynasty of Tang...

[calpaladin]

in Japan peaked during the Tang Dynasty. Chinese influence started around the late fifth, early sixth centuries A.D., with the introduction of Buddhism by Korean monks. This began during the Sui Dynasty, but the Tang really did a lot to push Buddhism to Japan.

Accounts vary on why the monks were sent to Japan. The Korean histories state that the Japanese were savages and their pirates were ravaging the area and that the monks were sent on a "civilizing" mission" (didn't work with regards to the pirates). Japanese historical accounts state that Prince Shotoku captured the monks and forced them to teach Buddhism. The truth, as with most things in history, is probably in-between...

With the massive growth of Buddhism, Japan did everything it could to import more of it over. The oldest family owned businesses in the world are actually Korean and Chinese families that immigrated to Japan at during this time to build Buddhist temples (the oldest being the Kongo Gumi - http://www.kongogumi.co.jp/home.htm).

Katakana (the manuscript form of the Japanese syllabic alphabet) was developed at this time (about the 8th-9th centuries) by Buddhist monks. They used Sanskrit syllables and sounds, altered to fit the Japanese language, to create the alphabet (hiragana wasn't developed until much later and not widely used until the mid-Tokugawa). This was so that the Japanese could read and recite the Buddhist prayers (na-mu a-mi-da...etc...).

Thanks to the Buddhist and Tang Dynasty influence, the Japanese emperors began the Taika reforms. These were attempts by the Japanese emperor to reform the government along the Tang dynasty model, including court etiquette, diplomacy, writing, and Confucian philosophy. This is probably when Sun-Tzu's Art of War came to Japan, along with all the other ancient Chinese Classical writings and books. These reforms, however, weren't popular with most Japanese people.

Unfortunately, as in China and Korea, Buddhist influence got a little too strong, weakening the aristocracy, and attempts were made by the monks to control the emperor. China and Korea responded to these attempts by killing the monks and confiscating monastery land. Japan responded by moving the capital from Nara to Kyoto and enhancing the power of the aristocracy to counter the monks.

Also around this time (9th century), with the weakening of Imperial power, the countryside families consolidated their power, leading to clans of warriors. These groups grew in influence, and did their best to resist the Chinese influence. These guys also started to kill Buddhist monks and confiscate monastery land if the monks got too powerful.

As we all here should know, these warrior clans began to be called bushi or samurai, and they formed a social class that ended up controlling the islands. After the Genpei Wars, the emperor was reduced to little more than a puppet until the Meiji Restoration (1868).

When the Tang fell around 900 A.D., Chinese influence pretty much disappears, since China is fractured into the Five Dynasties/Ten Kingdoms period (about 50 years of infighting between regions). China doesn't really grow in strength again or become a ridiculously huge empire until the Yuan Dynasty (the Mongols) from the mid 13th to mid-14th centuries.

Then Mongols had this tendency of invading Japan, so contacts with China trickled even more. After the Mongols stopped invading, the two emperors began to address each other as "Lord of the Land of the Rising Sun" (Japan) and "Lord of the Land of the Setting Sun" (China).

When the Ming came into power, contacts grew, thanks again to those Japanese pirates. It was around this time when the Japanese shogun, Yoshimitsu wrote to the Chinese emperor "your subject, the king of Japan" (Chinese historical accounts call this a sign of tribute while Japanese accounts differ, especially since the Japanese had their own emperor at the time, however ceremonial...again, the truth is lost to the ages).

During the Tokugawa (1600-1868), foreign influence was heavily restricted until some guy named Perry scared the Japanese into talking to all foreigners in 1853-1854. By this time, China isn't much of a power, and Japan decided to follow the European and American ways.


That, in a very small nutshell, should answer your question. If you need further details, I'll probably have to look over my notes from school. If it helps, I did focus on East Asian history at Berkeley, so most of this post is not coming from my ass. Some people in here (the ultra-sensitive nationalists of whatever country - disclaimer: I am Korean) will probably disagree with some or all of this account, but it's about as close as we'll get to the truth.

[Lazken]

nice post!

[Optomitrist]

calpaladin,

Keep writing, I must know more...

[npk9]

I have to concur - pls explain more.

[iam_pk]

actually depends on if u ar interested in Sun-Tzu's Art of War or not
coz Sun-Tzu's Art of War came out around Chunqui period( BC770-BC476 ), and japan didnt influenced by chinese until (AD6)tang dynasty.
anyway his thinking still affect us a lot. ie. napoleon became the france king because he read it and use the theory inside; during the gulf war, the us army all hav one copy for each soldier and sailor~

[ChaShu]

Excellent post Calpaladin! Pretty much jives with what I had learned in school. Chinese influence on Japan extended to things such as city planning and societal hierarchy (CH scholar/official, farmer, artisan, soldier, merchant vs. JP samurai/official, farmer, artisan, merchant), early military strategy and structure (pre samurai), etc... Light Samurai, IMHO I would recommend The Art Of War whether or not its popularity in Japan occurred at the peak of Chinese influence. It is an excellent primer on strategy of any medium or longer term endeavour and a co-text to Go Rin No Sho which is primarily a text on swordsmanship and Hagakure and Bushido, which are both more focussed on the person specifically. Another great companion book to The Art Of War is The Prince by Niccolo Machiavelli, more a political/interpersonal strategic guide. As for a translation of Art Of War, I suggest The Art Of Strategy by R.I. Wing and is in both English and Chinese and divided so that you read a stanza a week for 52 weeks.

[Light Samurai]

Thanks everyone for the great feedback! This answers my question, and any more related stuff is defiantly welcomed!
Peace, and Love,
Rick-san.

[calpaladin]

Anything specific regarding East Asian history?


Regarding Sun Tzu's Art of War, I would suggest using the Gagliardi "Art of War Plus" transations - it's a very recent work, only 5 or so years old.

There are multiple volumes. The first volume (Ancient Chinese) has it with the Chinese characters on one side and the basic English translation on the other. The second volume (Warrior Class) is much, much more in depth, containing a lot of the commentary over the years.

Don't bother with the rest of his work - they are targeted towards business-people or idiots with life problems (I'm not hating; can't stop a guy from trying to make money, but you gotta tell it like it is).

I like these better than the Cleary translation, which seems to be the standard. Haven't read the Wing translation though - I'll look for it sometime soon.

Another important book would be Miyamoto Musashi's Book of Five Rings and Yagyu Munenori's Book of Family Traditions on the War of War. In terms of Kendo/kumdo, these books were very influential (written about the same time during the early Tokugawa).

The Yagyu book especially (they were pretty much the Shogun's main spy group - read Lone Wolf and Cub for a fictionalized view of their influence).

To understand the influence of the Yagyu, modern Kendo was standardized mainly around the rules and forms of the Yagyu clan while the school of the Yagyu clan is the direct ancestor of today's Tokyo University.

calpaladin,

Keep writing, I must know more...

[Light Samurai]

Anything specific regarding East Asian history?


Regarding Sun Tzu's Art of War, I would suggest using the Gagliardi "Art of War Plus" transations - it's a very recent work, only 5 or so years old.

There are multiple volumes. The first volume (Ancient Chinese) has it with the Chinese characters on one side and the basic English translation on the other. The second volume (Warrior Class) is much, much more in depth, containing a lot of the commentary over the years.

Don't bother with the rest of his work - they are targeted towards business-people or idiots with life problems (I'm not hating; can't stop a guy from trying to make money, but you gotta tell it like it is).

I like these better than the Cleary translation, which seems to be the standard. Haven't read the Wing translation though - I'll look for it sometime soon.

Another important book would be Miyamoto Musashi's Book of Five Rings and Yagyu Munenori's Book of Family Traditions on the War of War. In terms of Kendo/kumdo, these books were very influential (written about the same time during the early Tokugawa).

The Yagyu book especially (they were pretty much the Shogun's main spy group - read Lone Wolf and Cub for a fictionalized view of their influence).

To understand the influence of the Yagyu, modern Kendo was standardized mainly around the rules and forms of the Yagyu clan while the school of the Yagyu clan is the direct ancestor of today's Tokyo University.

In my version of the ARt of War, there is a huge historical Introduction. There mainly focused on the Warring states and the Spring and Autumn ra dynasties. They talk about Vh'in and stuff, and it isn't even on the map that they had in the book. Generally, I'm having a hard time understanding who's attacking who, except for thw three major states: Wu, Yueh, and Ch'u. More on the area around those periods wlould be helpful
Thanks all!
Peace, love, and Oro () ,
Rick.