The Most Valued Characteristic?

[joekc6nlx]

In all seriousness, I voted for character/personality. Your character shows in how you approach kendo. If you are an honorable and respectful person, your kendo will also reflect that.

For Ms. Kaoru, I understand that some people believe that drinking is wrong, or that we drink too much. We spend our time in the "second dojo" discussing what we did in class, what is coming up, what our plans are for the upcoming weeks. We could do all of this in the dojo, but we have to be out of there by a certain time, so all of our business is usually conducted at the "second dojo". Anyone who comes with us is NOT required to drink alcohol, and I will not look down on anyone who chooses that path. Everyone has their own comfort level with alcohol, and I will respect that. Hmm....seems to me that kendo is affecting my outside life. Good!

[hyuna]

What do people mean by "character/personality"?

I mean, courage and perserverence are character/personality traits.

So when people say that the most important thing is a "good character" or "good personality," what does that mean? What makes up a "good personality" and, perhaps more to the point, which of those attributes are the most important ones?

[JByrd]

But better at making beer for the dojo parties! Since that is one of my hobbies, I get to brew the beer for our parties.

Hey! Me, too! We seriously need to hang out. I have a keg of a very hoppy pale ale, and a copy of The Tao of Physics... that should get us at least part of the way into the metaphysics of Kendo.

[JByrd]

I think people can mostly agree on many of the important aspects of character. The main problem is not that people disgree on the important ideals, but that almost nobody knows how to act in a way that demonstrates those ideals.

From what I have seen, few people actually attempt to question themselves about how to apply their ideals in the real life situations they experience. Instead they default to their own self interest, or allow their political or religious leaders to tell them what to do.

As long as people are too lazy or ignorant to actually figure out how to use their ideals to direct their everyday actions, I don't think it really matters what ideals they claim to embrace.

[joekc6nlx]

What do people mean by "character/personality"?

I mean, courage and perserverence are character/personality traits.

So when people say that the most important thing is a "good character" or "good personality," what does that mean? What makes up a "good personality" and, perhaps more to the point, which of those attributes are the most important ones?

When in doubt, I fall back on the Golden Rule. If I don't show respect and consideration for people, then I have no right to expect respect and consideration in return. How I handle myself in situations where people refuse to be respectful also reflects my own personality and character.

As for character/personality traits, so is meanness, cruelty, hatred, bigotry, disregard for others, etc., etc., etc.

What we are trying to convey in kendo is what the samurai believed that they were the moral examples for the lower classes (farmers, artisans, merchants).

I suppose you could argue that Character/personality is a broad subject, and you'd be right. Perhaps what Charlie was trying to demonstrate was the honorable and morally/ethically right way to live inside and outside of the dojo.

[hyuna]

I think people can mostly agree on many of the important aspects of character. The main problem is not that people disgree on the important ideals, but that almost nobody knows how to act in a way that demonstrates those ideals.

I don't really think "the important aspects of character" really are that clear.

There are some words and phrases we all can say but the meaning is often very obscure. Like when people talk of "the golden rule" as "do unto others as I would have them do unto me." That doesn't say anything without talking about what you consider acceptable to do to you. When there is some hard criticism, would you rather people be mean but honest? Or would you rather people be kind but bend the truth? Different people answer differently because some value hard truth (sincerity) more than kindness (courtesy) and vice-versa. Saying that people should be "considerate" is exactly the same. Saying people should be "benevolent" -- is "tough love" benevolent or cruel? These things seem obvious to oneself and to people who have similar opinions as you, but they are very obscure otherwise.

From what I have seen, few people actually attempt to question themselves about how to apply their ideals in the real life situations they experience. Instead they default to their own self interest, or allow their political or religious leaders to tell them what to do.

This statement suggests many sorts of values:
That people should be introspective and question how they ought to behave, that people should have principles ("ideals") that are external to "real life" that can be applied to it (since if they were not external, in what sense could they be "applied"?), that people should not be "self-interested", presumably that means be more interested in the welfare of others than themselves, and that people should be independent minded rather than simply being told what to do.

But, in fact, I would argue that most canonical kendo teaching, especially for beginners, is inconsistent with at least some of these ideals. For example, we are not supposed to think about how to act, but, rather, simply to act when the time comes and the opportunity presents itself. We are not supposed to be independent minded. As I mentioned earlier, what it means to be not "self-interested" is rather obscure even if the meaning seems clear to the person who says it. But, even so, if we are taught to think of crossing shinai as crossing swords, what kind of consideration is it that we teach when we are trying to "kill" our opponent? Kendo does teach us to have some ideals outside of "real life" that are applied to our lives, so that matches, at least.

Perhaps it is the case that kendo gives you the "strength of character" necessary to live up to your ideals. But then which is more important? Character or Courage and Perseverence to follow it?

As long as people are too lazy or ignorant to actually figure out how to use their ideals to direct their everyday actions, I don't think it really matters what ideals they claim to embrace.

It matters because if our goal in kendo is to teach people to act as they "should" without hesitation, then we strive to teach them to be, at least, not too lazy to use them to direct their everyday actions. If someone is "evil" and we give them the determination and ability to act the way they see fit, then we empower "evil" unless we somehow can "fix" their character.

That statement should make it clear why I bring up the question of what "good character" means. If you are someone who believes in "good" vs "evil" then you must train correct character and attitudes. It is, then, important to know what "correct character" means in a deeper and more complete sense than "the golden rule." If you are a relativist that does not believe in "good" vs "evil" and just that different people of different cultures have different ideals, then what does it mean to say that "character" is important?

[kanyil]

How about just plain old vanilla "nice"?

While not a requirement for kendo, I have almost never came across a kendoka that's not a nice person.

Even if some might be a little scruffy/rude on the outside, they will eventually warm up and can transform into the nicest persons once they get used to your presence.

[DCPan]

I think people can mostly agree on many of the important aspects of character. The main problem is not that people disgree on the important ideals, but that almost nobody knows how to act in a way that demonstrates those ideals.

Hmm...can't remember where I read this, but there was a great article on why practicing budo makes one a better person.

Rather than making an assertion about morality, the article makes a point about how to be a "great" martial artist, one has to have dignity.

If that dignity carries over to one's daily life, it's bound to make one a better person.

Kind of goes with the whole discussion about western and eastern society being "guilt-based" and "shame-based" society though....

FWIW.

[Pokie]

i think character is very important..look at where it is..look at it deeper and you'll find b-e-e-r, so beer is important..very important..maybe that's why japanese are very strong in kendo..that's why dojos should leave a space in the treasury for a "beer for kendo" fund...who's up for that !?

[Musha]

"character/personality"?

To be able to tell a good joke and stand out from the class?

[Musha]

While not a requirement for kendo, I have almost never came across a kendoka that's not a nice person.

I've seen some very scary kendo-ka in both England and Japan. People you think, I got to stay away from that guy..

This young Japanese guy fences me like he wants to see how many bruses he can give. He also mumbles some thing in seiza, maybe "Why's this gaijin guy sitting next to me". I fenced him for about twenty minutes taking rib doues and floor kotes and came to the conclusion that hes just a crap kendo-ka .

[The great I AM]

This young Japanese guy fences me like he wants to see how many bruses he can give. He also mumbles some thing in seiza, maybe "Why's this gaijin guy sitting next to me". I fenced him for about twenty minutes taking rib doues and floor kotes and came to the conclusion that hes just a crap kendo-ka .

You are a better man than I Mister Musha. I wouldn't have stood for that. It still amazes me (am I still that naive) how you can have a wonderful experience in kendo with some really generous and great japanese people, and then racist little sh!ts like your pal there come along with his obvious "gaijin doing kendo is wrong" attitude and try to hurt you. You must have the will power of a saint!

Who is the scary british kendoka you were talking about? Do we know them?

[Paburo]

jakob is right. all the great hachidans and kyudan i know are sakeholics. seems like one must master the sword at the time one masters the alcohol.

also, a keen sense of humour is always nice in a kendoka. kyu to kyudan. gotta love those smiling jokeful hachidan senseis!

[iam_pk]

courage!!! coz if u scare of it, u lose already~

[Musha]

You are a better man than I Mister Musha. I wouldn't have stood for that. It still amazes me (am I still that naive) how you can have a wonderful experience in kendo with some really generous and great japanese people, and then racist little sh!ts like your pal there come along with his obvious "gaijin doing kendo is wrong" attitude and try to hurt you. You must have the will power of a saint!

Who is the scary british kendoka you were talking about? Do we know them?

I can't work him out so can't say if he really doen't like me or just feels his kendo is better than any one but the sensei's. His bow is sloppy, his fencing is lax he turns up late for class with his friends and doesn't bother to warm up with every one else some times. His kendo is crap thats all I can say.

I've done some hard sports in my time and being hit with a shiai is nothing to being stamped on by people with studs in rugby and floored.

I can't tell you the British guys name because he is a sensei. Its just my thirteen, some thing year old friend said he was tsukied by him whilst doing keiko and he got scared of him ever since.