In Defence of the Disarmed

anogaijin · 19th January 2003, 08:15 AM

Hello,
This is my first post. Hope to hear some good comments or in the worst case merely to be ignored. Anyway here it is...

... as you feel the shinai torn from your grasp and go spinning across the dojo (hopefully not skewering anyone in the process) you have but a split second before your sempai strikes a resounding men what do you do?

1. Stand there like a deer in headlights.

2. Stand there and take it like a man.

3. Cower.

4. RUN AWAY!!!!!

5. Make an acrobatic dive for the shinai, execute a stunning forward roll, and come up in a beautiful chudannokamae(or at least try to).

6. Rush in and grab your opponent around the middle and stand there until you think he'll allow you to go pick it up and continue.

7. Rush in, grab your opponent's keikogi, perform an uchimata to get him down on the ground, then rip his men off, there-by announcing to the world that in a "real fight" you would have just won.

I have seen all of them. Yes, including #7.

I saw it about six years ago. In defence of his action player claimed that in the "old days" that was acceptable.

I have two questions
1. Has anyone else seen this happen?
2. What do you do when you get disarmed?

Answer#1:For my part I have never seen it again and think it is one of the most disgusting examples of bad sportsmanship I have ever seen.
Answer #2: I generally perform an amazing #1.

Thanks.

**ben** · 19th January 2003, 08:35 AM

Hi anogaijin, welcome to KWF.
1) I've seen this happen. Yes, I've also heard that this was allowed in pre-war kendo. EVeryone back then had some kaden jujutsu waza up their sleeves, apparently.
2) I usually make a pointless and instinctive grab for my opponent's shinai as it comes down, not at all in the fashion of Yagyu Munenori's famous muto waza.

b

**JSchmidt** · 19th January 2003, 08:54 AM

In ji-geiko, I just take it like a man

.
In shiai, I've yet to try it, but they're usually quick to call 'hajime' when people drop their shinais.

Jakob

**aru-ma** · 19th January 2003, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by ben
2) I usually make a pointless and instinctive grab for my opponent's shinai as it comes down, not at all in the fashion of Yagyu Munenori's famous muto waza.

b

never seen #1 but for #2 I try to dodge any cut coming until the shimpan gives me the hansoku, in jigeiko however I probably just stand like a stone and get cut

**munenmuso** · 19th January 2003, 09:11 AM

The last disarmed shinai I saw was on the 50th AJKchamps. He just raised both his hands and moved forward but his opponent moved backward as an act of chivalry(?) and never attack his opponent despite the obvious advantage.

Well for me, I'll just do a "butterfly return" if he hits me with men without my shinai. That is catching his shinai between my palms inches before it hits my forehead and throw him out of orbit.

**Steve** · 19th January 2003, 12:02 PM

I've heard that the "prefered" action is to run in close to your opponent.

**gill** · 20th January 2003, 06:23 AM

Run in and grab your opponent - you don't have to knock them to the floor and take their men off - although I have seen this done several times (actually always involving the same person....hmmmmm)

By grabbing them you have closed the distance - so they cannot cut you, then either the bout will be stopped - or you can mutually agree to stop if there are no referees. If they don't agree to stop then you have cause to knock them to the floor and rip their men off

Gill

**iwatekenshi** · 20th January 2003, 09:23 AM

Anogaijin welcome to the show.
To answer question number one. No I've never seen that happen....WAIT! Hold on I have. SHS intense practice sessions but the teacher was wanting them to do it. He always had the upper hand though. It was done sportmanlike however. The balance between fun and seriousness was really controlled well by the teacher.
Your answer to question two would be, "Oh... I dropped my shinai I must have done something wrong, take whatever comes and then make sure that it won't happen again and apologize. Here's a quick story though. Once I got makiwazed out and but amazingly my shinai came back down into my hands, caught it and then proceeded with a kote men and won our ipponshobu keiko. We just laughed.

**James** · 20th January 2003, 09:30 AM

I would agree with Steve,

In the Japanese Champs Nabeyama was disarmed by (the tiny) Harada, Nabeyama moved forward to close the distance with one hand held up in front of him.

Harada, backed away in chudan (actually out of the area) maintaining distance with Nabeyama, ie not attacking but also not allowing the unarmed Nabeyama to close with him until Yame was called. Not sure if that was exactly 'chivalry' more like keeping alert.

j

**KATSUJIN** · 21st January 2003, 07:39 PM

if i were to lose the shinai, i would go and grab my opponent around the do. If my opponent lost his shinai, i would just step back.

**GMason** · 21st January 2003, 08:05 PM

Easy, run in grab him perform O-Goshi on him. Once on the floor grab his Do at the bottom and pull it up on to the throat and choke him out

I have seen a couple of fences turn into a Jodo/wrestling. When a high ranking Sensei lost his shinai. I think that should actually read deliberatly dropped his shinai.

He then ran in shouting in Japanese and started wrestling with his student, I was told later that he was shouting "come on then" in Japanese (The sensei was quite a high ranked Judoka so it was fun to watch).

Everyone in the Dojo stopped and started shouting to the student. It was really fun to watch and all done in good humor and sportsmanship.

But personally I would just take it like a man (But having said that I've never lost my Shinai........................Yet

)

**Jerry Wellbrock** · 22nd January 2003, 12:00 AM

If your opponent has been disarmed... strike immediately before yame is called to score ippon-ari, if you are disarmed close the distance to avoid the strike, you may be called for loosing your shinai or recieve hansoku but this is better than letting your opponent score ippon-ari! Control your own destiny.

**Paburo** · 22nd January 2003, 01:46 AM

in the last taikai i went to, i saw this beast guy push a smaller guy, and then once fallen and disarmed the opponent, he went for a brutal men uchi. the poor smaller guy was in the floor helpless, while the beast triggered several mens on him. that seemed so dishonourable.

a few combats before i had fought with the same smaller guy, and i sent him flying with a strong tai atari. i didn't go ahead and try to bash him again while on the floor... he had lost his shinai too. i just waited till he got up again and in kamae to strike again.

if i win a tournament or match, i want to do it out of skill, reflexes and speed. not out of brute force.

**hobbit** · 22nd January 2003, 03:22 AM

If I can, rush in, grab them close ( pinning their arms), but making sure you don't stand with your legs alongside theirs, thus preventing the surruptitious knee in the groin being delivered.

**Kendoka** · 22nd January 2003, 09:12 AM

Kendo is The Way of The Sword.

If you lose or drop your (sword) Shinai in keiko, take it gracefully, bow slightly and wait for the perfect men from your opponent who was stronger than you in that instant.

In shiai, any of the above suggestions until the shinpan stops the shiai and then gives you a hansoku.

Get it ? Drop your (sword) shinai - you lose !!