If you don't like your country?

[Akai Bushi]

Hi. That textbook is approved by Monbusho. Also the tone is "softened", as I said.


Hi. I'd walk in your house, kill your entire family. And 50 years later I'd give you a billion dollars for compensation, but I'll say I haven't killed anyone in my life...


Hi. What differ Yasukuni Shrine from the rest is that it is the very shrine serving Class-A war criminals, not any of your under-18 child soldiers. Should I assume you to be the type of person who wold stand in front of Hilter and Himmler's craves and say, "wow, they did their duty and served their country well. I salute you."

The mentality of me visiting Yasukuni Shrine as a historical-cultural heritage site is completely different from a Japanese PM bowing there every year.


Hi. So I wasted my lunch time to some Japanophile.

Not only should the citizens in Japan and China be more educated about the fact. YOU have to understand what is going on in the world too. I repeat: It's not a matter of "so... get over it..."

Ignorant is worse than illiterate.

Sorry to waste your lunch time. Maybe you should eat instead of wasting it on someone as ignorant of world issues as myself.

What about world issues don't I understand? That Chinese are raised in a communist controlled country were the government decides what you are taught and what you are allowed to say. Where what you believe is just government propaganda. Even South Korea was an authoritarian democracy until the early ninties so much of what the adult population in South Korea believes was propaganda feed to them from a young age.

And prove to me Japanese have denied killing Chinese. Japanese Prime Minisiters have apologized many times in the last thirty years for the terrible atrocities against Korea, China, and many other countries. No apology is ever going to be enough.
Here is alittle timeline of apologies throughout history. Not just Japan.
http://reserve.mg2.org/apologies.htm

This word Japanophile. It is used so often when someone has a view point that supports Japan and they're not of Japanese birth. So if I supported the Chinese in this debate then I guess I would be a Sinophil. So suddenly I'm not allowed to have my own legitimate view point because I'm a Japanophil. " Don't listen to him he is a Japanophil. He must be an idiot to defend Japan."

Who is to say Koizumi is paying respect to the War Criminals and not the 18 year olds. It probably would be better if the war criminals were removed, but Yasukuni Jinja is the national shrine dedicated to those that have fought and died for Japan over the last 150 years and I will continue to support Koizumi. You are living in Hong Kong right, if China drafted you at 18 and sent you to Tibet to kill some monks I'm pretty sure you'd do it. People change their principles pretty quick at gun point.

And I didn't JUST say so get over it. I said it will take reeducation of Chinese and Japanese students. I mean is throwing bricks at an embassy the correct way of solving problems. These aren't protestors their bloody rioters.
And if neither side wants to sit down an talk this out maybe it would be better if Japan just left China. I mean then we'll see how both countries really need each other.

[Musha]

About Yasukuni. That shrine is dedicated to all the war dead over Japan's history. There are many war memorials in England and what if some one said, "Its bad to go there every remembrance day and the people who died for there country when at war do not deserve any respect."

I haven't been there my self so I don't know, but I wouldn't have thought that inside it only said this shrine is for Hideki Tojyo and the war criminals charged at the Tokyo war trials.

And Koizumi is damed if he does and damed if he don't' go to Yasukuni-jinja. The Japanese people would think he was soft if he listend to the Chinese and Chinese think he was supportive of the war if he goes...

[kanyil]

First of all I am neutral to the matter. Everyone's entitled to their opinions, and I am entitled to mine since my internet is not censored.

Japan is a very dangerous country . They spent the world 2nd highest of amount of money on Millitary( just behind U.S.A.). That doens't make sense after all for a defeated loser with the help of the Americans.

Chinese don't hate Japanese for them being Japanese , Chinese hate Japanese for what they have done and never apologize for it .


For Kanyil :

One more time , bro. There is not such word called " Taiwanese '' . If lets say I m tokyo , Do I say I am Tokyosian? Japan did a unforgivble crime to the people of taiwan , I don't understand how can those people just go to their freakin shinine and bow to those bastard criminals?



Spend over 44 billion dollars on Millitary / year and increase its amount each year by 8-10% , why?

Right, and I suppose the PRC doesn't spend a lot of money on its military or act aggressively towards its neighbors? You claim Taiwan and China are family, yet aim 700+ missiles at us? Does that "make sense after all" for a supposed family member? Or is that what happens in a normal Chinese household?



I agree with you on the Chinese doesn't hate Japanese for being Japanese, etc, etc bit.



Taiwan has mixed feelings about Japan because we used to one of their colony, and admittedly, they did a lot for the island's infrastructure (if only for their own reasons). They had also treated us harshly, and despite the politics, most Taiwanese does identify some sort of kinship with the Chinese, and hence feel aggrieved by WW2 Japanese atrocities.



So is there no such a thing as the Shanghainese? Cantonese? Portuguese? Japanese? Vietnamese?



One more time, bro, the Taiwanese has always been the Taiwanese, and no amount of propaganda or nationalist sentiments will change that. Although knowing the Taiwanese, treating us fairly and temping us with opportunities to share in China's new found wealth may very well do what your missiles cannot do. If anything, the Taiwanese are pragmatic entrepreneurs, and everything comes after business. As Paul Keating has said once in relation to the China/Taiwan issue, "never come between a Taiwanese business man and a bucket of money".



The Taiwanese bow to the Yasukuni shrine? You must be talking about the isolated incident of this one particular parliamentarian from Taiwan Federation Party, headed by the Kyoto University educated ex-president Lee Teng-Hui.

Be reassured that they DO NOT represent the mainstream view of the Taiwanese (he's copped ALOT of flak ever since the incident). Although his argument is that he was there to pay homage to the 23,000 Taiwanese dead memorialized by the shrine, conscripted into battle by the Japanese during WW2. bollocks I say, but at least he's democratically elected, and may be deposed in a similar fashion when the time comes.


The last bit on increasing military spending may be also applicable to the PRC.

…

The Americans almost wiped out the native Americans so if every country in the world were to appologize to every other country, that would mean every one would live in harmony with each other and there would be no more wars . What does it matter if some president apologises to some one else for some thing only afew old people know about…All the Africans better start burning posters of Tony Blair.

I believe your argument to be unsustainable. Size matters mate. The US does not sit next to a Cherokee Nation of 1.6 billion and armed to the teeth. Australia does not sit next to a nuclear-powered Aborigine tribe of 1.6 billion. Just wait for the day when the UK finds it self next to an ultra-nationalistic Zulu tribe of 1.6 billion, and Blair may begin to see things differently.



Hey man, a wrong is a wrong. An apology means a lot if spoken with sincerity, and that's when the healing/recovery can begin.

Japanese literary greats like Eiji Yoshikawa and Soseki Natsume not to mention the years of enjoyment with Kendo show us that Japan can create ideas that inspire greater virtues among us.

But when one does wrong one must own up to one's mistakes. Just as one give's credit where it is due...critique is given when it is due.

Why do Americans hate/dislike/distrust Muslims after Sept11?

Agreed.

Hi. I'd walk in your house, kill your entire family. And 50 years later I'd give you a billion dollars for compensation, but I'll say I haven't killed anyone in my life...



Every country has an ugly past about invasion and such. But that has nothing to do with ignoring or being irresponsible about it - as I said one fact has to be separated from another. You are only as good as what you are. Acknowledge your part in history and all countries should work together towards a peaceful world for the future generation. Properly edcuating for your citizens (both sides) is a good starting point.

Fair enough. Except in this case Japan's gift weren't all that much. Much of the investment in China arose out of entrepreneurship, not a sense of remorse.



Agreed.

[Musha]

So you mean Kanyil that its OK to bo bad things to small countrys but not big ones with lots of power?

This thread is getting dry now anyway. See what the Chinese and Japanese government has to say.

[KenShi_JoB]

Hi. That textbook is approved by Monbusho. Also the tone is "softened", as I said.


Hi. I'd walk in your house, kill your entire family. And 50 years later I'd give you a billion dollars for compensation, but I'll say I haven't killed anyone in my life...


Hi. What differ Yasukuni Shrine from the rest is that it is the very shrine serving Class-A war criminals, not any of your under-18 child soldiers. Should I assume you to be the type of person who wold stand in front of Hilter and Himmler's craves and say, "wow, they did their duty and served their country well. I salute you."

The mentality of me visiting Yasukuni Shrine as a historical-cultural heritage site is completely different from a Japanese PM bowing there every year.


Hi. So I wasted my lunch time to some Japanophile.

Not only should the citizens in Japan and China be more educated about the fact. YOU have to understand what is going on in the world too. I repeat: It's not a matter of "so... get over it..."

Ignorant is worse than illiterate.

England and France never apologize to Thailand too, for what they did in their colonialism. I doubt their children today even study about their evil deed with Thailand (but Thailand never became their colony, thanks to my ancestor). They never apologize. Call me ignorant all you want Mingshi, but my opinion still be "It's the way of the world, SO... GET OVER IT...". I state my opinion politely and you come and call the others "Japanophile" , "Ignorant". It's ok if you have a different opinion, but if you can not take that people can think differently than you, you should go have lunch instead of attacking others.

Are you god? Why do people that do not think the same way as you have to be wrong and ignorant? May be people like us can not make the world better, but people with hostile attitude like you are the cause of every war.

Yasukuni Shrine doesnot contain only class-A criminal, it's a shrine for all Japanese soldier died since meiji restoration.

So, as a Japanophile, I think China is more a treat to world peace than Japan.

[Yo...osh!]

I agree with Kanyil.

However I need to clarify in this forum that the Japanese government has never OFFICIALLY apologized to the Chinese for the atrocities of WWII. Neither have they OFFICIALLY apologised to the comfort women of China, Korea and Taiwan.

In 1998, the Japanese PM did aplogize for the occupation of Korea.

I don't condone the violent actions of the Chinese recently, and I think people should forgive and move on (as I have). However, unless the Japanese officially apologize, they are hard pressed to claim the higher moral ground. It would only take a press-conference and 5 minutes.

[KenShi_JoB]

I agree with Kanyil.

However I need to clarify in this forum that the Japanese government has never OFFICIALLY apologized to the Chinese for the atrocities of WWII. Neither have they OFFICIALLY apologised to the comfort women of China, Korea and Taiwan.

In 1998, the Japanese PM did aplogize for the occupation of Korea.

I don't condone the violent actions of the Chinese recently, and I think people should forgive and move on (as I have). However, unless the Japanese officially apologize, they are hard pressed to claim the higher moral ground. It would only take a press-conference and 5 minutes.

October 23, 1985: In an address to the United Nations, Japanese Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone apologizes for Japan?s role in World War II.

January 18, 1992: Japanese Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa apologizes for Japan?s use of "comfort women."

October 23, 1992: During a royal visit to China, Japanese Emperor Akihito expresses his sorrow for Japan?s wartime abuses

August 23, 1993: Japanese Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa uses his first parliamentary policy address to convey "a feeling of deep remorse and apologies for the fact that our country?s past acts of aggression and colonial rule caused unbearable suffering and sorrow for so many people."

September 20, 1993: Japanese Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa apologizes for suffering caused by Japan in World War II.

November 6, 1993: In South Korea, Japanese Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa apologizes to South Korean President Kim Young Sam for Japan?s wartime actions.

August 15, 1994: Japanese Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama apologizes for the suffering caused by Imperial Japan and concedes that other Asians suffered "tragic sacrifices beyond description."

June 9, 1995: The lower house of the Japanese Diet expresses "deep remorse" for the suffering inflicted on Asians and others in World War II.

July, 1995: Japanese Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama apologizes to the roughly 200,000 women who were put into brothels by Japanese forces to serve as sex slaves or "comfort women" and sets up a private "Asian Women?s Fund" to deal with reparations. The fund is "an expression on the part of the people of Japan to these women."

August 15, 1995: On the 50th anniversary of Japan?s surrender, Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama issues a statement of "heartfelt apologies" for Japan?s aggression. On the same date as Murayama?s statement, the National Diet adopts a "Resolution to Renew the Determination for Peace on the Basis of Lessons Learned from History."

December, 1996: Japanese Prime Minister Ryutara Hashimoto offers a letter of apology and monetary reparations to 500 survivors of the 200,000 "comfort women," but only six accept.

April 22, 1998: South Korean President Kim Dae Woo announces that the South Korean government will end its efforts to gain official compensation from the Japanese government for "comfort women" but will still seek an official apology and will not prevent individuals from seeking compensation.

April 27, 1998: A Japanese court dismisses claims from Korean "comfort women" for an official apology and compensation, saying that even though the women had suffered greatly, the Japanese government was under no legal obligation to provide either an apology or compensation.

October, 1998: Japanese Prime Minister Keizo Obuchi gives visiting South Korean President Kim Dae Jung a written statement saying that Japan "expressed deep remorse and extended a heartfelt apology" for inflicting "heavy damage and pain" on Koreans.

October 15, 2000: At a meeting in Tokyo, Chinese Prime Minister Zhu Rongji says China still feels that Japan has never properly apologized for its war atrocities but says it is Japan?s problem to decide whether and how to atone for its past.

May 24, 2001: Japan apologizes for forcing lepers to live in isolation decades after cures were available and agrees to pay $15 million to plaintiffs who successfully challenged laws that isolated them.

October 8, 2001: Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi apologizes and expresses condolences in China for those Chinese who lost their lives in World War II.

http://reserve.mg2.org/apologies.htm

Some of these information seem conflict each other though.

[Musha]

Was just thinking. Does China have a monument and memorial day for its war dead? If Koizumi went to Yasukuni jinja but refused to go to a Chinese war dead memorial day he was invited to then that would be a problem but if they never held one or never asked him or any one else, then whats to do?

[mingshi]

If it was simply a gesture of respect of the war dead - there is A-bomb ruin remains in Hiroshima.

Is the philosophy and the act of paying respect for ancestors hard for westerners to understand?

FYI Hong Kong was a British Colony for 99 years until 1999. Mainland Chinese education has nothing to do with me, besides I have cable and internet to gather my news source. As I said, don't mix up your facts and one matter should be separated from another. Coloninalism is one thing, massacre is another. If the Chinese government "drafted me at 18 to go to Tibet...yadda yadda", I'm bloody sure I will be shot because I am not the type of person who will "change their principles pretty quick at gun point".

According to Mingshism, I am a goddamned goddess, and I am entitled to my religious rights. Don't read if you don't like my post.

Modern Japan has been forgiven. Imperial Japan should not forgotten. History cannot be rewritten.

Last but not least, for the Japanophiles out there, it is mainly due to that quote "but maybe if we were all alot more like the Japanese are now the world would have alot fewer wars" - as if Japan has suddenly become the model nation, the ultimate peace, the heaven, and nirvana. Sorry for getting you all upset and crying for your entire afternoon. I apologized. Now move on and get over it.

[KhawMengLee]

In conclusion, what Japan did in WWII was wrong, but China needs to get over it.

Yes, China has gotten over it. Writing a book that whitewashes war crimes is a sure way of stirring trouble up again.

Japan is one of the most peaceful countries in the world. If you accually talk to a Japanese citizen war is the furthest thing from their minds.

Er, if you talk to an avarage Joe/jane from the states I think war would be the last thing on his/her mind too.

It's pretty ironic to say this, but maybe if we were all alot more like the Japanese are now the world would have alot fewer wars.

You know, that has got to be one of the stupidest things I have heard in a looooooong time. Might as well say, hey, if we allow child porn and rape to be shown its fine so long as no pubes are seen. Or Hey, sexual harrasment in the workplace is fine. Really, dude...

Your is as idiotic as saying lets all be like the americans and we'll have no war.

You should have just gone for compassion and mutual respect.

[KhawMengLee]

What about world issues don't I understand? That Chinese are raised in a communist controlled country were the government decides what you are taught and what you are allowed to say. Where what you believe is just government propaganda. Even South Korea was an authoritarian democracy until the early ninties so much of what the adult population in South Korea believes was propaganda feed to them from a young age.

.

Er...I think you're giving too little credit to China. They are developing at an alarming rate. I work there and believe me, in 10-15 years time they won't need us because they will have learnt enough to be self sufficient in terms of manufacturing and trade.

All those luxury goods electronic goods we enjoy will be made there by Chinese brands.

To think that China is some Stalinist state where a turnip is the hight of one's purchasing power in the supermarket would seriously be ignorant.

England and France never apologize to Thailand too, for what they did in their colonialism. I doubt their children today even study about their evil deed with Thailand (but Thailand never became their colony, thanks to my ancestor). They never apologize. Call me ignorant all you want Mingshi, but my opinion still be "It's the way of the world, SO... GET OVER IT...". I state my opinion politely and you come and call the others "Japanophile" , "Ignorant". It's ok if you have a different opinion, but if you can not take that people can think differently than you, you should go have lunch instead of attacking others.

Are you god? Why do people that do not think the same way as you have to be wrong and ignorant? May be people like us can not make the world better, but people with hostile attitude like you are the cause of every war.

Yasukuni Shrine doesnot contain only class-A criminal, it's a shrine for all Japanese soldier died since meiji restoration.

So, as a Japanophile, I think China is more a treat to world peace than Japan.

Its a debate dude. Passions are bound to fly.

I'm Malaysian and we fought the japanese in WWII. We lost good people and suffered because we stood up for our rights. You must understand that China and Korea, like Malaysia, fought. And in turn were brutalized.

Remember, Thailand claimed neutrality during the war and was largely pro-japanese ( Mostly due to Wanitto's influence on Prime Minister Phibun). As a result Thailand allowed the japanese forces to walk thru to the borders into the back yard of many countries. Apart from members of the resistance I doubt most thais truly understand what it was the countries that fought suffered.

My family went through a hell of a lot more and lost a lot of people and it shows them no respect when we someone says "Oh, get over it." and has not had to go through what they suffered.

I think Mingshi is trying to point out that some people have a romantisized view of Japan. A land of Samurai and ninjas and Hello Kitty without realising that like every other culture and country it has both its charm and shockers. What she's trying to do is make you see that there is a bigger picture at hand.

Last but not least, for the Japanophiles out there, it is mainly due to that quote "but maybe if we were all alot more like the Japanese are now the world would have alot fewer wars" - as if Japan has suddenly become the model nation, the ultimate peace, the heaven, and nirvana. Sorry for getting you all upset and crying for your entire afternoon. I apologized. Now move on and get over it.

Mingshi doesn't pull punches boys n girls. Just like her kendo Hello Mingshi! Long time no see! Honestly, What a post to get stuck into after a 6month kendo hiatus!

[KhawMengLee]

About Yasukuni. That shrine is dedicated to all the war dead over Japan's history. There are many war memorials in England and what if some one said, "Its bad to go there every remembrance day and the people who died for there country when at war do not deserve any respect."

I haven't been there my self so I don't know, but I wouldn't have thought that inside it only said this shrine is for Hideki Tojyo and the war criminals charged at the Tokyo war trials.

And Koizumi is damed if he does and damed if he don't' go to Yasukuni-jinja. The Japanese people would think he was soft if he listend to the Chinese and Chinese think he was supportive of the war if he goes...

God I love debate! Rowr!!!

Er...Germany's war memorials do not enshrine the bodies of Hitler or Himmler or Dirlewanger. I think the world would have the same reaction as China if it did and Schroder(oops if the spelling is wrong) honored it every year.

In a 1000 years, who cares? People remember King Richard as a hero. 1000 years ago he was a bastard to the muslims. The thing is...the horro of WWII is still close to our hearts and minds.

[Akai Bushi]

Look I'm not saying Japanese are perfect I'm just saying that they are less likely to start a war than alot of other countries or push their weight around.

And I haven't understated China's achievements. On the first page I stated China has grown up again to become the 6th largest economy and a military power. In addition no one can deny the great contributions of the China's culture to art, science, liturature, philosophy, and many other things. I just don't share the view point that China is being all too rational at this point about Japan's past. I agree what Japan did in WWII was wrong, but we shouldn't condemn Japan forever.

[KenShi_JoB]

I know Japan are no Hello Kitty land, but I really think Japan is quiet peaceful country today. I think China is more treat to the world peace. It's just my personal opinion. I have no problem if people have different point of view.

and sorry KhawMengLee, I am really sorry. I forget that how it sound like to say "get over it" to suffering people. Thank you for remind me that.

I am not that naive, I done my part on military service, I once work to feed myself in the financial field, one of the dirtiest sectors in Corperate Thailand. No one needs to treat me as a day-dream kid.

Yes, my country are not much suffering from Japanese in WW2, more from the bombs from USA on Bangkok. but I do understand the war than you think, my family are all (except me) military officers even my sister. My family past through vietnam war, communist rebelion in the border of Lao and Malaysia,etc. It's really made me think that if we keep holding a grudge to our former enemy, it will not solve the problem and only lead to another war. Every country war history do contain ugly story. Chinese Red army have many terrible deed against their own people who are against communist, some US army do rape and murder vietnamese girls, many Europian country do evil thing during their colonialism. Most of victims are not apologized. but if we cannot compromise, it will only result in global conflict, racist, etc.

Yes, I can not expect people to react in a polite way all the time, but I hope that a fellow kendoka can argue in a more polite way without calling each other "Japanophile" "Ignorant" "Idiot". No one know everyting, no one is perfect.

[Light Samurai]

Hey, kenshi Job, just wanted to compliment you on how good your english is Sorry, for this not having not to do with the topic.