Anticipation vs. Pure Reaction

**scbang** · 26th January 2003, 01:23 AM

Not sure this is only me or everyone does it.

I think we are supposed to empty our mind and react to our partner ( or opponent ) during keiko. However, many times I'm acticipating their move and already decided upon certain technique against that move. If I'm wrong, I just hit men as a defense or block. I think this gives you better chance against higher Dan players when you are beginner. However, I'm started to think this is because I'm training with same people most of the time so I know what they do ( Not many chance to do Musa-Sugyo when you have a full-time job and family ) and it actually is a bad habit that will slow down my progress as a Kendoka.

Two questions ( Someone might want to run a survey if you know how )..

1. Do you do it? ( All the time, sometimes, never )
2. Is it bad thing to do and will slow down your progress in Kendo training?

OK, I'm ready to be shot at.. Go for it.

SC " Nothing is something but something else"

**munenmuso** · 26th January 2003, 01:43 AM

Strategy and reflex has a very fine line between them. But it all depends on the collective informations you have gained against an opponent you have been playing with for the last several years. Since you've mentioned that your only practicing with one dojo, chances are you know your opponent pretty well and can take advantage of his every move since his moves are already indelible on your mind, the factor of anticipation is much higher. But anticipating an opponent's moves requires reaction, as reflex is developed through repetition of experience or observation of repeated phenomenas.

This post won't help for sure. I'm only good at guessing the wrong answers..hehe

**scbang** · 27th January 2003, 09:46 AM

I want some high ranking Dan's opinion here ( 5th and up ). Are we supposed to guess or are we only supposed to attack after seeing an opening? Is guessing a bad habit?

SC

**JSchmidt** · 27th January 2003, 11:26 AM

You're supposed to create the opening, by correct use of pressure, seme and footwork...and that's where kendo gets really really really difficult!.
I've found it easier to practice, by making the opponent attack the place you want him to attack..ie opening up the men slightly while applying pressure, to force a men cut to which you can use debana/oji waza...but applying that to straight shikake waza is tricky.

Jakob

**Old Warrior** · 27th January 2003, 12:16 PM

I'm a Kendo beginner but an experienced Epee fencer. I think that your reflexes take over when faced with an attack and even an instantaneous counter-attack may seem to come out of nowhere. I don't believe that an offensive attack can be purely a matter of emptying your mind and seeing what seems to appear available. I think fencing is more than autonomic nerve responses.

I like to watch who I am about to fence and see what clues their body gives about their next movement. I look for favorite techniques, repetitive patterns in preparation, and even the distance between their front and back foot. I look to see what parry they favor or if they choose to use distance as their best defense. None of these things would be available if I was immersed a the "still water" mindset, relying on my learned responses.

I can't, yet, speak for Kendo, but I can't believe its different than my Epee fencing experience.

**hamish** · 27th January 2003, 08:32 PM

Ideally, you want to control your opponent so that you force them to attack at the targets and timings that you dictate, and then pick them off as they start to move, or think about moving. Before you get to that level you need to concentrate on attacking the openings you see, or making new ones.

Conscious strategies such as checking your opponent out before you fight them, and watching what they do are good, and I don't think guessing what they're going to do is bad at all. If anything its a good stage to pass through. Sometimes your guess will be wrong and you'll get clocked and you'll gradually learn to read your opponent, and guess more correctly, even with people you've never fought before.

Having said that, you should not be just sitting back waiting for someone to attack, and then applying the same old response to each attack. That approach will not improve your kendo. You should be applying it in the vein of 'If I do this, then I guess they'll probably do that.'

Remembering how well you guessed in many encounters builds up to experience and a knowledge of what different types of opponent do when you attack them.

Hamish

**Old Warrior** · 27th January 2003, 10:50 PM

I don't think your use of some form of the word "guess" at least 3 times does justice to the thought that prior behavior is predictive of future performance. Kendo is definitely different from Epee fencing, in many ways. In particular, the use of "parries" is not a substantial part of the art and does not occupy a lot of time in practice. The target area is so restricted that obvious martial techniques must be eschewed for learned responses. I can see already that I have a very long way to go to master even a small amount of the requisite mental discipline.

Observing body movement is the only way to predict what your opponent will do and referencing the concept by calling it "guessing" is to minimize the value of the task that a trained mind will perform.

Perhaps, its wishful thinking, but I'm 54; which seems a bit old to begin the journey down the Kendo path. But the one thing that I bring to the table, that all the youngsters do not, is many years of sword "combat". The need and purpose for combination attacks and immediate counter-attacks is ingrained. The understanding that I can never move faster than the average 20 year old and therefore must have superior timing, distance and blade control is obvious to me. I have difficulty accepting that there is absolutely no "advantage" to a mature and trained mind and that automatic resposes are the epitome. Nevertheless, I am a humble student and there is much for me to learn and understand.

**nodachi** · 27th January 2003, 11:53 PM

I don't think your age means you will never be able to be faster than the average 20 year old. The kendoka here in Japan who are in their 50's, 60's, and older seem to move at lightning speed and it is hard to even see what they did unless they want you to see it when they are teaching you.

You may not be sprinting around in a match like the younger folks, but you can still give a whooping and get faster in your strikes. I think it is more of an experience issue rather than the body just not working like it used to.

I also think that the more you do kendo, you more you will just be able to react without thinking. I surprized myself yesterday and got a genuine point against someone who has been doing kendo for 10 years. One moment I was in chudan, and the next I said, BAM! I should hit men now. Didn't really fully comprehend why it was such a great opportunity to attack, I just did, and it worked. Granted this happens virtually never since I am still super new to kendo, but I think as one gets more experience these moments of acting without thinking will happen more and more.

**munenmuso** · 28th January 2003, 07:33 AM

I agree to Nodachi.Unlike in any other sport, mastering kendo doesn't mean that you have to be fast alone and old age here is not a disadvantage in fact it is an asset, that is if kendo is taken on the right path. Perhaps on other sports speed is essential epecially if you used to be on the track in field. Ever fenced with a 75 year old 7th dan. Man, if I live several times again I will never win against that old man even with my unorthodoxed kendo. I know that I was faster than him and I am at the prime of my youth. But never touched him even in tsuba tserai. Immovable spirit transcends the physical aspects of kendo. This is the best part, I can still continue and improve kendo even at old age..

Read Moriji Mochida (10thdan, 89yo)....

**scbang** · 28th January 2003, 11:21 AM

Yes, speed isn't everything.

A few years ago, after I had a practice session with a young Go-dan, I thought he was the fastest Kendoka I've ever seen. His Kote was so fast I couldn't see it coming.

Then I had a session with a professional Nana-dan who's stroke I can clearly see but I couldn't do anything to avoid it or counter - Don't know why. He even took my Shinai out of my hand once without much effort.

Towards the end of the session, these two senseis started to practice each other. I thought it was going to be something to watch.
Very fast young one and very experienced and seasoned one.

To my disappointment, it wasn't much of a match. Go-dan was acting just like me. Losing his shinai and his fast stroke nowhere to be found. Nana-dan sensei's stroke doesn't seem to be any faster. It just seems Go-Dan lost all his speed and power.

Much much more to learn I guess.. SC

**ben** · 28th January 2003, 06:20 PM

OW I always seem to be addressing your posts directly. I like the experience you bring from fencing to kendo. However there is (at least?) one major difference in mindset between the two.

"Sutemi" means 'to go for broke' 'to risk it all' and it is central to kendo psychology. The shinken (real sword) is so dangerous an object that even playing around with one can be lethal. Often in shinken shobu, both kenshi would be killed. Therefore the philosophy arose that, since you would probably die anyway, you should invest your (one-and-only) attack with everything you have. Hence the lack of emphasis in kendo on parrying techniques, the use of both hands, the front-on stance, u.s.w.

In such a situation it is not surprising that the forefathers of kendo tried to do away with too much "on-field" mental analysis. Or rather, they took it further. What they came up with was, I believe, much more than just trained reflexes.

Scbang's story above is a common one which I'm still trying to work out after 15 years of kendo.

So I think there are some differences between kendo and fencing. Not many but some. But I'm interested to hear what you discover.

Oh, to answer the question, I often decide upon an attack before my opponent moves. What I find though is that often, after investing everything into this strategy mentally, for some reason I go and do something else completely different without planning to. It's often successful.

b

**Old Warrior** · 29th January 2003, 12:32 AM

Ben:

This is a great discussion.

You are definitely right that on the field of "combat" everything is so fluid that planned actions frequently change instantaneously. That's why my favorite epee attack is to close the distance on an opponent's preparation, disrupt his preparatory routine, and then lunge into his chest. I have learned to disguise distance by changing my arm bend so the blades remain in the same position but I have edged in closer. If I can back the opponent to the end of the strip they cannot retreat and there only hope is to parry.

The history of sword combat that evolved into modern Kendo, is instructive, but I'm not so sure it's absolutely applicable in the sport context. I have watched my classmates spar for the last 4 months. I can see who prefers what attack and who is weak when in close. This data has to affect how I would fight with them. I can see how I would use a mori (men) attack just to get in close because some of my classmates would not like me being there. I always commit myself 200% to an attack (that's why I need a knee brace). But why wouldn't I let my mental computer tell me which one has the best perceived odds of success? If I'm wrong - I learned something.

Well, I got my Bogu last night. I recounted my experience in another thread. If the Men wings will loosen up enough to allow me to raise my hands, I may even get a chance to see if any of my fencing background will be helpful.

**Charlie** · 29th January 2003, 04:55 AM

Funny, I was just thinking about this.

It seems to me that in kendo, the process of fighting is this:

1) Your eyes and body take a quick snapshot of your opponent's posture. maai, etc. They send this info to the brain.

2) The brain decides what the best attack would be based on the info. (Men, kote men, etc.)

3) You make the attack.

4) Repeat.

All in the span of seconds or partial seconds.

So, really, there is some anticipation or guessing of what the opponent will do or what will be open, but it's not very conscious, and some kind of merger between conscious and unconscious takes place. This is me thinking out loud, BTW.

**Old Warrior** · 29th January 2003, 05:28 AM

Charlie;

As I have repeated many times before - I can't speak for Kendo.

In Epee fencing, I see each opponent like a puzzle that needs to be figured out. If I haven't fenced with you before I will begin at distance, in a tight on guard position, with my point on line. I will make a quick thrust toward your wrist to see if you defend by moving the blade up (pushing my blade to the side) or down (pushing my blade downwards). If you are bouncing on your toes I will be expecting a fleche (a leaping attack) so I want to keep the maximum distance to give me the time to parry and see just how fast you are.

Every attack of mine will be a combination set up by a feint or a counter attack that I am anticipating. Rarely, will I ever use an attack of the first intention because I am too old to out move an opponent who is less than 1/2 my age. Don't get me wrong, I am usually much faster than my opponents believe and therefore I have been able to beat National ranked competitors although I am just a saavy club fencer.

Everyone seems to be suggesting that Kendo is primarily using attacks of the first intention - in other words, I see it, I hit it. This whole "mind like still water approach" seems to be diametrically opposed to what's going on in my Epee brain.

I can see I'm going to have a lot of shinai bruises until I get this sorted out. I'm getting exhausted thinking about it.