reverse uchiotoshi?

[Neil Gendzwill]

While I'll freely admit that I don't exactly know what hari is, I do know that it isn't a corruption. It's written with the same kanji as the 'bari' of 'dobari shinai'. In fact, you can see it by clicking on the link I inserted above to a forum posting where both haraiage and haraiotoshi are mentioned.

Interesting. I'd like to see that post but I don't see any link.

[Kingofmyrrh]

If it's oji-waza, like deflecting an incoming kote, then we say suriagi. But if it's shikake-waza (you're just moving the shinai aside to get to men without the opponent doing anything) then we say harai. I've never heard harai-age used, but that term makes sense to me. Also technically suriage is more of a sliding motion while harai is generally more percussive. Kata #2 and #6 are both suriage.

I like this description of the differences as well... but do you mean #2 and #6? Or #5 and #6? Sorry, I'm not trying to be facetious, it's just that I'm starting to get little confused myself now...

sorry, link was a while ago

http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/...9032041864.html

on the list, it's the 7th one down. For reference, the others are:

tsuke
sawari
oshi
osae
noru
tataku
haru (this is the same as hari, just a verb not noun)
harau (haraiageand haraiotoshi)
uchiotosu
maku
makiosaeru
surikomu (think, not certain)
makiotosu
makiageru
hazusu

they're all different types of shikake waza, BTW.

[Kingofmyrrh]

they're all different types of shikake waza, BTW.

Well, more specifically, they're all methods of getting the opponent' shinai out of the way. Don't want to create further confusion...

[Neil Gendzwill]

I like this description of the differences as well... but do you mean #2 and #6? Or #5 and #6? Sorry, I'm not trying to be facetious, it's just that I'm starting to get little confused myself now...

Sorry, #5 and #6 - #2 is nuki-waza.

PS that link is dead now, but that's still an interesting list. I know some of them, but many of those terms are new to me.

[samurai999]

Do you mean kote uchiotoshi men (aka aigotemen)? In this case, you're surely referring to a situation where the opponent doesn't just 'seme' at your kote, but actually performs an attack... I certainly agree that this isn't a 'raising' movement - it's a standard uchiotoshi technique, as I described (or indeed JMarsten does in the topic 'uchiotoshi' a few threads down).
I get the feeling we're saying the same thing but letting language get in the way... I'll try and be a little clearer.

Hmm i think so too (in terms of language).

As for the former, i don't think aigotemen is the same as uchiotoshi. Aigotemen, i thought, meant that you and your opponent go for kote at the same time (thus "cancelling" the strikes) and as opposed to your opponent going just kote, you go men as well right after. kote-Uchiotoshi means to literally "hit down" the opponents shinai as he/she goes for kote and then going for men, right? I thought there was a difference. But this is a separate discussion... As for seme to the kote, that sorta encompasses an attack, doesn't it?

Tim

[DCPan]

I'm pretty sure that hari is just a corruption of harai.

Hmm...I see it listed as one of the waza in Sata Nariaki sensei's book "The cornerstone of attacking (my translation)".

It is grouped under harai.

Under harai, it has bari/hari, hajiku, and a couple of more.

Bari/hari is the same kanji as the one used in the word "do-bari" shinai, which means "extended".

I think bari/hari is used to describe horizontal harai, where as harai-age and harai-otoshi are used to describe up and down harai movement.

The difference between bari and hajiku is harder to explain.

Hajiku means to "bounce". Imagine those hanging ball contraptions where one ball comes down and stay, the other ball on the other end goes up?

In hajiku, the idea is that your shinai comes to the centerline, and the opponent's shinai gets bounced out of center...like the hanging ball contraption.

So, it's all harai....just with different feel.

FWIW.

[kuzu70]

I'm watching a video of the recent local team try-outs (for AUSKF nationals), and one of the yondan kenshi does this move: from chudan no kamae, he lowers the end of the shinai and slams it upward, making the opponent's shinai fly up, then steps in for men cut.

Do you remember which kenshi it was?

[Kingofmyrrh]

Hmm i think so too (in terms of language).

As for the former, i don't think aigotemen is the same as uchiotoshi. Aigotemen, i thought, meant that you and your opponent go for kote at the same time (thus "cancelling" the strikes) and as opposed to your opponent going just kote, you go men as well right after. kote-Uchiotoshi means to literally "hit down" the opponents shinai as he/she goes for kote and then going for men, right? I thought there was a difference. But this is a separate discussion... As for seme to the kote, that sorta encompasses an attack, doesn't it?

Tim

Most technical books classify aigotemen and koteuchiotoshimen as the same thing, as far as I've read (for example, Ogawa Haruki's two part series published by kendo nihon). There are also posts to the same effect on ichinikai, although I don't seem to have much luck in linking to them today.

I have to say that I disagree with you - seme to kote does not mean an actual attack to kote, it just means to 'threaten' the opponent's kote. I understand that the literal meaning of 'semeru' is to attack, but within a kendo context, it describes pressurizing a target, not actually attacking it. For example, one of my favourite waza instruction collections is kendo nihon's '18 men techniques' in which they interview various policemen/8th dan etc and ask them to run down three or so of their favourite men techniques. Phrases such as 'seme to kote, and when the opponent flinches, cut straight to men' are commonplace, and looking at the accompanying photos it's clear that there is no actual attack to kote. Seme to a certain target may well be followed by an attack to that target, but 'seme to the kote, that sorta encompasses an attack, doesn't it?' - well, I'd have to say that the answer to that is no.

[Kendoka]

I'm watching a video of the recent local team try-outs (for AUSKF nationals), and one of the yondan kenshi does this move: from chudan no kamae, he lowers the end of the shinai and slams it upward, making the opponent's shinai fly up, then steps in for men cut. I think it's like a reverse uchiotoshi in that you slam your opponent's shinai up from below rather than down from above. Is this technique valid? Does it have a name? Does anyone employ this in their sparring and is it effective?

As spotted by others above, that waza sounds like a harai-men.
Harai is slightly different from your left (to hit kote) or your right (to hit men) and both differ from suriage.

Harai-men is a sweep of the opponents shinai to their right, creating an opening to attack their men.

Harai-kote is the opposite, but more of a sweep up and to their left side, then attack kote.