Where Did All the Parries Go?

[Paburo]

it's similar to harai men alex...
i'm not sure if i'd be able to explain the difference...

in harai you 'hit' your aite shinai to one(either) side, then strike.
in hari you 'push' it to the sides, not 'hit' it. i'm not sure how to describe the 'push' movement... its sort of like when you do maki waza. you don't really hit the other shinai like otoshi, you just make contact with it and deflect it aside instead.

sorry for the nonsense... if you come to madrid we'll show you personally

[Neil Gendzwill]

The parry defence to men is a very difficult technique. For European fencing, you are mostly dealing with a lunge or something, the fencer isn't attempting to run you down. So if you successfully parry, he's still right there in front of you and ripe for the picking. In kendo, you can try to parry the men but once you've parried it's difficult to counter-attack as he is already into you or past you. An example of this would be men-suriage-men or men-kaeshi-doh. In the former case, it's a sliding defence that's turned into a men attack. In the latter, it's more or less a straight overhead block where the momentum is turned into a doh attack. Both are difficult to execute well. The most common defences against men are debana-kote (hit his kote as he comes in), nuki-doh (avoid the men entirely by stepping sideways and strike doh as he passes) or tsuki (tsuki him in the nodo or mune as he comes in). None of these techniques are typically taught to new students as the basics of correct attack still must be formed.

Parries are much more common when defending against kote as you have more distance to work with. So kote-suriagi-men is seen quite often. Suriagi is a sliding upward parry, it can be done with either side of the shinai. Out and out blocks against kote aren't usually done (kote-kaeshi-something).

These techniques fall under the general heading of oji-waza as has been described. At your stage you are practising shikake-waza, where the attack is entirely generated by you. Within shikake-waza we also have techniques for dispensing with the opponent's shinai. Harai-men is quite common, hit the shinai aside with either an upward or downward motion, then attack. In fencing this technique is called a "beat". We also have uchiotoshi where the shinai is attacked with a close to vertical beat of enough strength to sometimes knock it out of the opponent's grip.

[alexpollijr]

Paburo

Thanks for enlightening me
I think I know what you're talking about.

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
The most basic and primary concept of European fencing is the parry and riposte....

I have now enjoyed about 50 Kumdo classes ... .
Help me find the right mindset.

50 lessons?

Well, possibly a bit more practice is needed before your teacher introduces you to higher level techniques.

There are ways in kendo to entice your opponent to attempt a cut. The technique/s used may be attacking or responding.

A method could be - you entice your opponent to attempt a cut and you take advantage of the situation as they move or commence to move toward the target that you have decided upon.

Your response may or may not include a deflection of their shinai, prior to your attack / cut.

The important point is that you need to be able to deliver a cut / attack and only repetitive kendo practice teachs the body and mind just how to do that. You need those attack skills before you can start to use the other techniques.

[Karaken]

OW, I think it's more phylosophical difference than mechanics of physical movement. I, for one, doubted many times about the lack of parry technics in Kendo. However, allow me to make two points based on ancient examples.

1. There is a war strategy of putting your defense in front of water. This appears to be foolish because you don't have any place to repreat. However, it also says to your soldiers that we have nowhere to run. Only option is to Win.

2. Ancient Chinese sword Kata have various combinations of offense and defense. However, if you know you are weaker than your opponent, there is a technic called "No defense". This will endanger your safety. However, if you must win, this technic will double your strength since you don't have to worry about your defense but you opponent does. If both swords cut, you can continue to cut but your opponent must retreat if he doesn't want to die. It seems to me Japan somehow selectively imported this part of the technic only. Chinese swords move circular but Japanese swords cuts straight therefore ONE SWING - ONE KILL : I believe Korean sword move somewhere in between.

Karaken

[Paburo]

Originally posted by alexpollijr
Paburo

Thanks for enlightening me
I think I know what you're talking about.

don't thank me, thank Saito-sensei. he is the one who taught me those techniques

[Old Warrior]

"In kendo, you can try to parry the men but once you've parried it's difficult to counter-attack as he is already into you or past you. "

Another great point. But, it also seems to me that you don't have to get out of the way and therefore your opponent is still standing in front of you and at least capable of being hit.

I guess this topic is of interest because I am so far from mastering the skills of moderately good footwork and swift striking. Standing there and getting hit does not seem like the best alternative. Since my timing is somewhat advanced for my low level of skill, at least putting up a defense and looking for a counter, struck me as a logical choice.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
"But, it also seems to me that you don't have to get out of the way and therefore your opponent is still standing in front of you and at least capable of being hit.

Not in a way that's going to get you a point. You'll have to move away and hit going backwards. And since he's the one that's crashed into you whilst you were busy parrying, you'll have a job doing that.

[KhawMengLee]

Yar, thats what haya-suburi is for. My Sensei used to stress that haya-suburi should be done properly. When you do most of the counter attacks, the little skip back in hayasuburi really helps.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Hitting going back when you've got the initiative is one thing. Trying to hit going back after an incoming taiatari has just hit you is different. Possible but your opponent already has the advantage.

And besides, this is already quite different from the original question. When I think of parry-riposte, I don't think of block-crosscheck-counterattack backwards.

[sminki]

"Not in a way that's going to get you a point. You'll have to move away and hit going backwards. And since he's the one that's crashed into you whilst you were busy parrying, you'll have a job doing that."

This point by Neil is a great one. So you'll have to parry/deflect the opponent's shinai and (in almost all circumstances) move back to readjust the striking distance and either do a shomen or hiki men (muri or toigyuk mori) which means that you'll need superb footwork to do properly. And you're right back where you started with the footwork dilemma. This sort of footwork and technique takes very long time to master for it to be done properly in real bout situations.

You having done approximately 50+ kendo lesson means that you just got your bogu and have been doing kendo for 3-4 months. I applaud your initiative to think about what you're learning and trying to improve upon it. I think that we all could be doing more of that. However, I also think that this is the time for you to master the basics, proper strike and proper footwork and these specific techniques will all come in due time.

[Old Warrior]

"However, I also think that this is the time for you to master the basics, proper strike and proper footwork and these specific techniques will all come in due time."

This goes without saying. My starting the thread is a reflection of a thirst for knowledge, even at those moments when I am forced to do other things - like work.

[sminki]

I'm glad that we agree on that point.

The heart of the matter is that the answers are embedded in the basics which is sometimes hard to put in words and explain. People in this forum have given you many good feedbacks. I think you should try to put it into practice, but you will not be able to do it without solid basics and especially solid footwork. Isn't it ironic that the problem which made you think about parrying and countering in the first place puts you right back at the problem itself?

Oh, there is nothing wrong with "standing there and getting hit" so long as you get something out of it. I still enjoy it thoroughly when my sensei/sempai has such a great strike on me that I can only stand in awe of it.

[Karaken]

OW, when beginning pupil asks me what to do to avoid getting hit all the time ( He was actually running away at times ), I told him best you can do for now is to hit men no matter what the other side does.. Keep doing this until you land perfect men often. This is as good a defense as any till you figure out otherwise ( You could become yudansha by that time :-) )

Take the center! Keep it there!

[Old Warrior]

"Oh, there is nothing wrong with "standing there and getting hit" so long as you get something out of it."

The first thing I learned was to try and keep my mouth open and not clenched, because when I got hit it seemed to rattle my fillings and crowns. Now I just need to learn enough to fight back within the rules and without hitting too hard.