Another religion

[louisvandalen]

After reading all these post about kendo and religion (dogmatic) I would really like to know:



I always wondered where such deep believe comes from. Is there anyone that "volunteered" into any religion after let's say 20years old whom had no prior religious background/roots? If yes what changed you from a non-believer into a true believer.



I can see why people that are brought up in churches or temples will believe. We are all born as naked apes and if you feed an ape bananas from a cardboard box it will probably think that the box is the place where bananas grow (I’m not trying to be offensive here). Put the ape in the jungle and it will spend the first days trying to find a box.



Now we take the ape from the jungle and put him in a room with a box. And again after a few days hanging around the ceiling he will probably manage to open the box and eat. Great stuff, solution provided. But here the box is something you can touch and so is the banana so by using its senses it can actually learn about existence. (The environment variable in modern psychology).



Where a God is concerned we have nothing to touch, to taste or to feel. So back to the question: why believe in it?



And why isn't the ape praying? They know love, pain, fear and even have the ability to use tools. Some apes like the bonobo have even more qualities (on which I won't comment since kids read these posts, but I’m jealous at the rate).



This will probably turn into a crap thread but anyway.



Is it fear that makes us religious? We are all standing in line waiting to move into the next phase (if any) so knowing that you'll go to another place is very comforting.



Is it to overcome a crap life? Knowing that things can only get better in the next phase is again a very neat feeling (which ultimately could make someone very lazy)?



Is it stupidity? Anything you can't or aren't willing to understand, blame God. He will know.



And more: imagine the world a long time ago. A very long time ago when man was so hairy that some gorillas made mistakes in early mornings (looking at some of my friends I'm quite sure this happened). In this environment the hairiest of them had to come up with some rules to prevent bad things from happening. Do each other no harm was probably one of the first rules (since pain and grief are sense able and can be explained without to many words). Sure, bloody tell me that when I'm being chased by a saber tooth, why can a beast like that hunt me (monkey logic) but why can't I hunt another man. Differentiation was added to the vocabulary (which is really a necessity in any religion). In the end just another justification I guess and the first step to supreme beings (e.g. man, God, me)?



Noises turned into words, words into sentences and now into sickening thick dictionaries (especially the French ones). And then, somewhere along the way God showed up (as a figure in a book written by man).



If we ditch Darwin and all actual prove of evolution there’s no discussion I guess but that’s the wall I always seem to run into when religion comes up. Dogma after dogma.



I would really love to have this deep believe that some of us have. That complete and utter feeling that in the end everything will be fine. It’s better then my version that in the end everything will be painted black.

[piggy]

the answer to god is easy. fear. more people can be controlled out of fear rather than love.

"Noises turned into words, words into sentences and now into sickening thick dictionaries (especially the French ones). And then, somewhere along the way God showed up (as a figure in a book written by man)."

if not by man, than by who? Darwin was a man wasnt he?

im tired so thats my crappy input.

[Berugijin]

Religious people consist of a few groups:

• The Brainwashed. For example a child that grows up in a very religious family. The child will in turn brainwash his children too.
• The Ignorant. For some people it's a very depressing thought that humans are just monkeys. You live, you reproduce, you die. Just like any other animal. The Ignorant can't accept this so they glorify their own existance by claiming they were made by an uber-being and are promised eternal bliss after death.
• The Traumatized. I've seen it happen. A mother lost two of her children and now spends all her time reading biographies about 'saints'...

Then there's a small fourth group who think they're clever (I'm not argueing that). What do you 'lose' by being religious? Nothing. But you have everything to gain (eternal bliss blablabla).

Religion is nothing more than:

• quack science ("intelligent design" anyone?), they attribute scientific phenomena to mystical beings...
• therapy for those who can't consolidate with the fact that they are in fact monkeys. You could call it blissful ignorance.

Now I don't mind all of that. If going to church makes you feel better, go for it. But I really despise fundamentalists (especially christians):

• They lobby to block stem cell research ("Christopher Reeve was meant to be paralyzed, to cure him would be against the will of the lord!")
• They spread ignorance by coming up with crap like "intelligent design"...
• They spread hatred against minority groups (homosexuals).
• They abuse their followers' trust (and ignorance) for own personal gain.
• They assimilate everything into their big obscure cloud of ignorance. The 'christian kendo' thread comes to mind.
• They feel better than the "non-believer heathen dogs".

There is no difference between "religion", "cult" and "organized crime". All three use the same line:

"If you don't do X for us bad things will happen to you."

You either pay them money or you will burn in hell for all eternity.

[Berugijin]

the answer to god is easy. fear. more people can be controlled out of fear rather than love.

“We will strangle the last king,” cried the revolting peasants, “with the guts of the last priest.” [and then we will be free]

[piggy]

i have to agree with you about the stem cell research. if the lord wanted him to be paralyzed for a purpose, what purpose would he serve?!? he's a vegatable! he cant do anything! im sure he'd prefer to be a normal person.

you want to stop people from getting an abortion? lets go right now. i'll fight you for it.

[Berugijin]

you want to stop people from getting an abortion? lets go right now. i'll fight you for it.

Don't be silly. Women that are victims of rape should most definately not have the choice to abort. God intended it to be that way.

(I'm being cynical.)

[Wes Nazo]

Terry Schaivo:
The argument being made by these so called "right-to-life" people is: You can't take someone off life support, because only god can choose when they die. That would be playing god...but then again, wouldn't any medical intervention be consided "playing god?"

It's these religious hypocrites that make me dispise the US sometimes...

[Utotin]

Oh boy. Its the Secular Taliban again!!!

[Akai Bushi]

The thing about stem cells and abortion is that Christians believe every embreo is a human life. It's looked at as murder.

Does anyone know Scott Peterson? Killed his pregnant wife and was charged with a double murder. Well abortion is legal in California and he was the father. Maybe he just didn't want the baby. According to pro-choice it's just tissue until it's almost born. So really he should only be charge with one murder. Right?
Or if I beat on a pregnant womans stomach to force an abortion I should only be charged with assault not murder when she miscarries. Right?

Stem-cells will help alot of people, but research on Jews in WWII could help people survive as well. The problem is do you believe stem cells are human or just cells. Of course we are all just Monkeys so why does it matter if one of us kills the other its just nature. Two of the same species kill eachother all the time.

[Lloromannic]

First off :I am NOT religious but I think that perhaps it is a bit unconsiderate and erroneous to think religion=BADBADBAD and all religious people to be inferior. I think that their choice to believe is just as good as ours to not do so and perhaps it is a bit wrong to be as dogmatic in atheism as in religion; one group says "There IS a God" and the other says "There is NOT a God", I for one have neither the knowledge nor the arrogance to claim to know if either is right. I don't believe but I might as well be wrong (see you in hell then ).

People are generally not good OR evil, the (ex-)Pope for example, I disliked his stance on homosexuals, birth control and his treatment od the theology of liberation in Central and South America, on the other hand he along with Bono (another catholic) helped the Drop the Debt campaign enormously and right there did more for the poor than me and probably any of you have done or probably will do in our lifetime.

So in short: I don't know if there is a god, I think not but I am not sure, and stop with the fanaticism guys, you give us atheists a bad name.

[Berugijin]

The thing about stem cells and abortion is that Christians believe every embreo is a human life. It's looked at as murder.

This is about just as stupid as savouring every spermatazoid because it's 'a human life'.

Does anyone know Scott Peterson? Killed his pregnant wife and was charged with a double murder. Well abortion is legal in California and he was the father. Maybe he just didn't want the baby. According to pro-choice it's just tissue until it's almost born. So really he should only be charge with one murder. Right?

Wrong. According to pro-choice there is a window of opportunity where the embryo is not yet considered human life, i.e. sentient. I believe this is about 20 to 24 weeks (could be wrong on this). The real question is whether 'potential life' equals 'life'. Personally, I see no wrong aborting a 'bag of replicating cells' that is not sentient and can not feel pain.

Or if I beat on a pregnant womans stomach to force an abortion I should only be charged with assault not murder when she miscarries. Right?

If a woman wants the baby than you've just robbed her of her future child. Technically (perhaps even legally too) it's not murder. But your robbed that person of a choice and of a potential child that was wanted. It makes sense to pass a bill to specifically cover this case.

Stem-cells will help alot of people, but research on Jews in WWII could help people survive as well. The problem is do you believe stem cells are human or just cells. Of course we are all just Monkeys so why does it matter if one of us kills the other its just nature. Two of the same species kill eachother all the time.

Are you suggesting we destroy every 'end' that justified 'the means'. Would you tear down the piramides because they are a product of slavery? There is also a certain context to be associated with the jews. During WW2 in Germany it was socially acceptable to perform experiments on jews. There was nothing wrong with that in that time and in that culture. There was nothing wrong with slaves either.

I don't see your point really. It's just stupid to throw away valuable research, the bad has been done. Atleast they did not die for nothing. They were probably more useful to society than you will ever be (this is not intended to be ad hominem).

[GlideWalker]

Christians believe that every embryo is a human life - no we don't. That'll be the fundamentalists.





Wrong. According to pro-choice there is a window of opportunity where the embryo is not yet considered human life, i.e. sentient. I believe this is about 20 to 24 weeks (could be wrong on this). The real question is whether 'potential life' equals 'life'. Personally, I see no wrong aborting a 'bag of replicating cells' that is not sentient and can not feel pain.

Yep. I'll go with that.



If a woman wants the baby than you've just robbed her of her future child. Technically (perhaps even legally too) it's not murder. But your robbed that person of a choice and of a potential child that was wanted. It makes sense to pass a bill to specifically cover this case.

That's OK too.

Are you suggesting we destroy every 'end' that justified 'the means'. Would you tear down the piramides because they are a product of slavery? There is also a certain context to be associated with the jews. During WW2 in Germany it was socially acceptable to perform experiments on jews. There was nothing wrong with that in that time and in that culture. There was nothing wrong with slaves either.

Kind of yes... The trick is not to do the bad stuff in the first place. 'It was socially acceptable at the time' is no defence at all. Very, very difficult. Horrific fates awaited anyone who suggested it was not OK to persecute jews in Germany in the 30s and 40s, so who are we to judge. But this does not make it right. (Obviously). Whether or not we make use of the research - maybe. I think you are kind of drawing the conclusion that there is no moral relation between a stem cell and, say, a 23 year old jewish person? If so I think I could buy that also!

I don't see your point really. It's just stupid to throw away valuable research, the bad has been done. Atleast they did not die for nothing. They were probably more useful to society than you will ever be (this is not intended to be ad hominem).[/QUOTE]

Same difficulty with this passage. And that is most definitely ad hominem and you clearly meant it to be! But hey, we don't have to be philosophically rigorous in here. We can just fight if you want!

[drizzt]

Religious people consist of a few groups:

• The Brainwashed. For example a child that grows up in a very religious family. The child will in turn brainwash his children too.
• The Ignorant. For some people it's a very depressing thought that humans are just monkeys. You live, you reproduce, you die. Just like any other animal. The Ignorant can't accept this so they glorify their own existance by claiming they were made by an uber-being and are promised eternal bliss after death.
• The Traumatized. I've seen it happen. A mother lost two of her children and now spends all her time reading biographies about 'saints'...

Then there's a small fourth group who think they're clever (I'm not argueing that). What do you 'lose' by being religious? Nothing. But you have everything to gain (eternal bliss blablabla).

Religion is nothing more than:

• quack science ("intelligent design" anyone?), they attribute scientific phenomena to mystical beings...
• therapy for those who can't consolidate with the fact that they are in fact monkeys. You could call it blissful ignorance.

Now I don't mind all of that. If going to church makes you feel better, go for it. But I really despise fundamentalists (especially christians):

• They lobby to block stem cell research ("Christopher Reeve was meant to be paralyzed, to cure him would be against the will of the lord!")
• They spread ignorance by coming up with crap like "intelligent design"...
• They spread hatred against minority groups (homosexuals).
• They abuse their followers' trust (and ignorance) for own personal gain.
• They assimilate everything into their big obscure cloud of ignorance. The 'christian kendo' thread comes to mind.
• They feel better than the "non-believer heathen dogs".

There is no difference between "religion", "cult" and "organized crime". All three use the same line:

"If you don't do X for us bad things will happen to you."

You either pay them money or you will burn in hell for all eternity.

now thats damned insulting. I take offense at being refered to as ignorant and a ""quack". I'm as well edjucated as you are, and i have very little doubt im as intelligent(im gonna toot my own horn for a minute here.........i have a very high IQ, and graduated from high school very close to the top of my class(and it was a clas of over 300)). You insinuate that all religious people are dogmatic morons, mired down by there beleifs(wich cant possibly be correct because YOU dont beleive them, therefore there wrong). Some of the greatest scientists in history have been highly religious men. Many early scientific minds were priests of the Catholic church.....




Do not insult my intelligence and my beleifs because they are not yours. It simply proves you are as ignorant as what you claim myself to be. I am not brainwashed(i did not start going to church until i was a teenager, and i do not follow half of what the church i go to preaches........i find my own truths in life, scientific or not), i am not ignorant, and i am not traumatized into beleiving. So what am I?

"

• They lobby to block stem cell research ("Christopher Reeve was meant to be paralyzed, to cure him would be against the will of the lord!")
• They spread ignorance by coming up with crap like "intelligent design"...
• They spread hatred against minority groups (homosexuals).
• They abuse their followers' trust (and ignorance) for own personal gain.
• They assimilate everything into their big obscure cloud of ignorance. The 'christian kendo' thread comes to mind.
• They feel better than the "non-believer heathen dogs". "

this is the biggest load of SH** i have ever seen in my life 80% or more of christians DONT beleive that.

Im gonna go before i say something that get me banned. I wish you no ill will or malice, but stop showing your assanine-ness towards religious people.....



Thanks and Gig'em

[GlideWalker]

So in short: I don't know if there is a god, I think not but I am not sure, and stop with the fanaticism guys, you give us atheists a bad name.[/QUOTE]

You're not an atheist, you're an agnostic. Technically, this is the only rational position to take. Atheism is actually a faith, or at least a belief, since it cannot be proved.

So you are actually the only person in this thread who is genuinely not religious.

[LNGUYEN]

Please, if you think because you are a nonbeliever, then you are better than us, the believer, and that make you have the right to insult us, then I tell you that you aren't worth a penny and nobody even want to pick up a penny on the sidewalk.