origin of the Katana?

[JohnHershman]

ok, so far i have heard two different stories about how the katana came to be.

the first one is that the katana was modeled after the Muslim's sword used in the crusades, in other words the katana is a modified schimitar. if this is true then somehow the japanese traveled to the mideast or somehow encountered one and modeled after it... I find this one very unlikely. I am reading a Book called samurai william and it is talking about the first europeans(portugese) who found japan and they called the katanas schimitars, so thats my guess as to where this history came into being.

the other i heard is that when china contoled Japan that the emporer of china had a double edged sword and out of respect for the emporer the japanese made single edged weapons....

dunno if either of these are true, give me your take and if you heard a diferent one please share!

[Jacynth]

Correct me If I'm wrong but the muslim swords are not schmitars. They are just curved swords. Schmitars originated from persia.

[sou]

After the monguls tryed to invade japan the japanese needed to create a better close combat weapon..... The monguls weapons where better and the only reason the monguls fled was because the devine wind( a typhon)....

[JohnHershman]

honestly i am not sure, but thats what was under the impression they were called

Correct me If I'm wrong but the muslim swords are not schmitars. They are just curved swords. Schmitars originated from persia.

[Philippe]

ok, so far i have heard two different stories about how the katana came to be.

the first one is that the katana was modeled after the Muslim's sword used in the crusades, in other words the katana is a modified schimitar.

Now that's a pretty far-fetched idea.

the other i heard is that when china contoled Japan that the emporer of china had a double edged sword and out of respect for the emporer the japanese made single edged weapons....

Err... China never controlled Japan...

dunno if either of these are true, give me your take and if you heard a diferent one please share!

It was simple independent evolution, based on the technology and circumstances of warfare in the Japanese archipelago.

The went from straight double-edged swords, to straight single-edged swords that cut better, to curved singled-edged swords that were better for fighting from horseback and also served admirably for fighting on foot. The katana is simply the end result of that development.

[tattooedasshole]

Correct me If I'm wrong but the muslim swords are not schmitars. They are just curved swords. Schmitars originated from persia.

The muslims are using scimitars. They were invented by persians. Persia was a huge country depending on what period in history (when Greece was a power, Persia was almost everything to the east of Greece). Most muslims can trace their ancestry back to persia, or the Ottoman empire.

The japanese originaly made sword based on chinese designs. The sword changed gradualy from straight tachi, to curved tachi, then into the katana, as requirements/methodes of use changed (horse back/ground troops. ect.).

[gsx1100s]

Here's the definitive Katana Timeline , hope it helps.......

http://www.katanacentral.co.uk/histo...natimeline.asp

Oh ...that sort of Katana ....

cheers Michael

[aquilonian]

I am not sure and dont think anyone can say for a fact of the katanas origin. the japanese culture as we know it(feudal times, religion,ect.) is a very new culture by most standards. but the muslim idea is not that far fetched considering that most modern martial arts came from the middle east. one of the most obious exeptions being capoeira. The major religions today also came from the middle east (biggest exeption scientology). the idea of making drawings for sounds (today its called writting) also came from the middle east they had the first writting system. It seems that at one point in history the middle east was where the most advanced nations existed. ironic considering they are now viewed as savages here.
However the japanese have made the katana into a weapon all their own, that does not immitate any other, even the sabre or calvary sword although more practical its not the same. as long as we are guessing wich is all we can really do, make educated guesses. my guess would be that the japanese in their attempt to make a better edge, stumbled across the method that is used for katanas today for differential hadening. who ever made the first katana was probably trying to make the single edge of a straight sword, covering the sword with some material (maybe not even clay) and leaving the edge uncovered, upon quenching created the curve that the katana is known for. of course with this method only one edge can be created because it radically changes the structure of the sword. over time I believe the edge held up remarkably well, and gained fame. little by little being accepted by the warrior class, not only for its performance, but the cost of a blade made in this fashion would have been lower as oppossed to a straight double edged weapon with similar edge performance. sience the origin of the samurai or servant started in the farmer class, cost would have been of importance to a half starving samurai. Later as we all know after minimoto yoritomo they became bushi and future bushi had to come from bushi stock with almost no exeption. when the katana became a national symbol mostly during WWII they became sought after collectibles, different katana from different times have different quality, most katana made were not very good. however there are true masterpieces that are truly outstanding by anyones standards, which when you learn of the craptastic quality of the steel used to make such worthy weapons (and I mean junk) your attention is directed towards the smith rather than the blade (this is where the awe for this swords comes from). I believe it was a welcome mistake, just that a mistake. therefore giving this sword its origin in japan, yes there was already tougher curved swords before, but not in likenes to the katana. It truly is ... japanese.



did you know the word sword came from rome having its original meaning as penis? And that the word testify came from the romans as well, when they would testify on a trial they would raise one hand and squeeze their testicles with the other,and proclaim "I testify!", hence the word testi-fy. Now adays we have replaced the testicles with the bible to fill this custum.

[gsx1100s]

did you know the word sword came from rome having its original meaning as penis? And that the word testify came from the romans as well, when they would testify on a trial they would raise one hand and squeeze their testicles with the other,and proclaim "I testify!", hence the word testi-fy. Now adays we have replaced the testicles with the bible to fill this custum.

Sorry gotta correct you on that one Aquilonian san :

Testify

There is bit of folklore floating about that the word testify (with its associated forms like testimony and testament) derives from testicle. The legend has it that ancient Romans would hold their testes while swearing oaths. This is not true. The word does not derive from testicle, nor did Romans swear oaths on their private parts.
Testify, et. al., derives from the Latin testis meaning witness. Testicle also derives from testis. The testes are witnesses to a man's virility.

cheers Michael

[Gregory]

After the monguls tryed to invade japan the japanese needed to create a better close combat weapon..... The monguls weapons where better and the only reason the monguls fled was because the devine wind( a typhon)....

actually the kama-kazie (divine wind) was a monsoon


that wasnt meant to be obnoxious

[aquilonian]

[QUOTE=gsx1100s]Sorry gotta correct you on that one Aquilonian san :

correctomundo! I humbly accept yor correction. To tell the truth I recognize that the example you presented is much more plausable. but the one I presented is much more entertaining.
The suporters of the testicle idea present the following quote (from the blible of all places): genesis 24:2 Hence Abraham said to his servant, the oldest one of his household who was managing all he had: " Put you hand, please, under my thigh as I must have you swear by -----(God, Lord, Jehova, adonai, spongebob squirtpants, the jedi ect.... whoever you want) that you will not take a wife for my son....." They also point out the similarities betweent the words testicle testis testimony ect bla bla bla bla
He did say under my thigh and not "on my balls" so it's not too clear althoug this leads me to the conclusion that the writer of this passage of the bible was either : Gay himself or just......not straight.
Anyhow you win ......why am I even debating this?


post script: You can't make direct quotes from websites man, thats cheating you even wrote the et. al., with the period and the comma.

pps Ah wordorigins.org is a nice website indeed! (good fun you got rep points)

[Philippe]

actually the kama-kazie (divine wind) was a monsoon

Re-actually (), the kamikaze [神風] were typhoons (taifū [台風] in Japanese). Monsoon refers to the rain bringing wind in India and nearby parts of Southeast Asia, or to the rainy season associated with said wind.

Typhoons are the Pacific ocean version of hurricanes.

[Hisham]

The swords used by muslims in the crusades were the Damascus swords which process of forging was the standard in Damascus and if i'm not mistaken in Toledo two when it was under muslim rule that is.The Damascus sword is said to rival the katana at many levels, the sad thing is there aren't that many studies about the subject either in arabic or in any other language plus the fact that unlike the japanese swordsmiths who kept there tradition going, the arab ones didn't for many reasons waiting to be researched.
The sword was a major symbol in arabia's warring tribes era, you'd notice that just by reading pre-islamic poetry, just to tell you that design of a sword was a pride in those days and saying that they used persian scimitars is in a way oversimplifying the matter.

Most muslims can trace their ancestry back to persia, or the Ottoman empire.

Not really, the Ottoman turks may trace there ancestry to persia but not most muslims including arabs.

[gsx1100s]

[QUOTE=aquilonian correctomundo! I humbly accept yor correction. To tell the truth I recognize that the example you presented is much more plausable. but the one I presented is much more entertaining.)[/QUOTE]

I agree yours is far more entertaining !





[QUOTE=aquilonianpost script: You can't make direct quotes from websites man, thats cheating you even wrote the et. al., with the period and the comma.

pps Ah wordorigins.org is a nice website indeed! (good fun you got rep points .)[/QUOTE]

It's a great website and yes my apologies for being so lazy lol

cheers Michael

[gsx1100s]

Here's a link that has a small amount of history on the Katana ...( for real )


http://www.hyoho.com/Kiso10.html

cheers michael