Kote-Men speed...

[tango]

I'm late to this thread, but it's a good one!

I can't remember the sensei I heard this from, but it was several years ago and he said, "If you want fast(er) kote-men, then SAY kote-men FAST(ER)" .. part of the mentality of working to get your body moving as fast as your voice.. I know that that did help me (although it screwed up my timing for a little bit in the beginning).

..but doing that also caused my footwork to be faster.

I learned a trick from a guy in our class who trainined in Chicago for a little while.. He was taught to SLIDE the right foot forward (don't leave the left foot behind) when you hit kote, and then fumikomi on the men.

...he does this and his kote-men is pretty damn fast. I'm still working on the slide because of the habit of doing fumikomi twice.

[T.Nilges]

I learned a trick from a guy in our class who trainined in Chicago for a little while.. He was taught to SLIDE the right foot forward (don't leave the left foot behind) when you hit kote, and then fumikomi on the men.

...he does this and his kote-men is pretty damn fast. I'm still working on the slide because of the habit of doing fumikomi twice.

According to Traditionalist Kendo this is incorrect. All strikes should be done with proper form. A practioner of Competetive Kendo would say that if this gives an edge in about then it is justified. Under this circumstance I feel that both would disagree with the lack of fumikomi on the kote. The fumikomi acts as a spring board for the men strike. Fumikomi is faster than striking and as such the removal of the fumikomi will only create the illusion that you strike is faster.

[mark]

The kote is not a feint, but the main target is still men.
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Hi Neil,
If you "score kote" would you still go for men?

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you "score kote" would you still go for men?

I would stop with kote, but it depends on your skill level. I think more inexperienced people should commit to the whole nidan waza, because if they are thinking too much about whether the kote is in, then they are going to hesitate before the men. With more experience, you can be more relaxed about it and just recognise when the kote succeeds.

According to Traditionalist Kendo this is incorrect. All strikes should be done with proper form.

What makes you think that "proper form" always means fumikomi-ashi?

[JByrd]

Well, when practicing kote-men you should go after each with equal vigor.

That's what I was always taught. The best way to get a chance at men is to deliver a very strong kote that forces the opponent to react.

A couple of other things: Extending the arms to get maximum reach for the kote strike leaves more room to strike men.

Also, not every opponent reacts with the same timing. Sometimes a fast kote men works, sometimes you must have a small interval between the strikes to allow the opponent time to react and open the men. There is no one-size-fits-all timing for kote men, and "as fast as you can" is not necessarily a winning timing. That's one of the reasons you take time to size up an unfamiliar opponent before attacking him, to probe him and learn his reaction time.

[Charlie]

Hey, Mark, there have been times when I attacked with kote men, got the kote, and just let the zanshin carry me beyond that. At other times, I have attacked kote men, got the kote, and still gone after the men - cancelling the kote, pretty much, cuz I fouled up the zanshin. Still other times I get neither, of course!

TNilges, welcome to an old debate on this forum, the fumikomi-vs.-tsuri-ashi debate. General consensus, if I'm stating this correctly, is that while fumikomi is often what's taught as textbook kendo, in actuality cutting with a sliding step is equally as valid. That's a huge generalization of it, though, I think there's a very long thread on it somewhere.

By the way, we're all late to the thread, isn't this thread a year old or so?

[tango]

According to Traditionalist Kendo this is incorrect. All strikes should be done with proper form. A practioner of Competetive Kendo would say that if this gives an edge in about then it is justified. Under this circumstance I feel that both would disagree with the lack of fumikomi on the kote. The fumikomi acts as a spring board for the men strike. Fumikomi is faster than striking and as such the removal of the fumikomi will only create the illusion that you strike is faster.

The concept is similar in fashion to what Neil posted earlier:

The fumikomi on the kote should be much lighter than on the men. If you have a strong fumikomi, then your motion will tend to stop and you'll have kote, then men rather than kote-men. So think light. You can also say "te-men" rather than "kote-men" to emphasize this. Remember that most of the action is with the left hand. Keep it light on the kote and let the shinai naturally rebound up so that you're ready for men. The right hand should just be moving on a steady path towards the kote and then smoothly up towards men rather than pulling back. Make sure you get a nice little rhythm with the light kote and stronger men - pa-PUM, not BAM-BAM.

Now, I've only been doing kendo for a little more than 10 years and I know about using fumikomi as a 'spring board' --- but trust me, I know a faster kote-men when I see it (and feel it). It's not an illusion.

Whether it's "valid" or not is immaterial, since the idea is not to score the kote, but rather, the men. ... and the men requires fumikomi.

[Shazzanzzz]

I just wanted to add that I do 3 kinds of kote men.

1) Fake kote, men - I fake kote, while starting to move, go to the other side of the shinai, then strike men. one step.

2) kote-men - normal kote-men, two steps, i usually don't move my left foot much though, unless the opponent backs up.

3) kote(shinai)-men - get center by hitting the shinai down, hit kote and tsuba and shinai, then go for men. two steps on this one also.

i usually start from the 2nd one and adjust according to the opponent.

[Kapplow]

Thanks for all the help guys. I have a lot of work to do now.

[DCPan]

I learned a trick from a guy in our class who trainined in Chicago for a little while.. He was taught to SLIDE the right foot forward (don't leave the left foot behind) when you hit kote, and then fumikomi on the men.

Can you clarify your description here?

Are you saying the guy is taking two steps still, just that the step for the kote is okuri-ashi instead of fumokomi?

There is actually something called the nito-issoku kote-men where you strike kote-men with only one step. In this case, you would hit kote at the moment of de-ashi and men on the fumikomi.

YMMV

[tango]

Can you clarify your description here?

Are you saying the guy is taking two steps still, just that the step for the kote is okuri-ashi instead of fumokomi?

Yes, that's precisely what I meant. TRY IT OUT!!
I'm telling you, he's worked on it pretty hard and he's much faster with it now than he was a couple years ago.

I have to consciously think of it to do it... As I said, I normally just fall back to second nature... fumikomi x2. During kihon, I try to work on it and I do notice more quickness.. If you try it out, let us know how it works for you..

[T.Nilges]

I would stop with kote, but it depends on your skill level. I think more inexperienced people should commit to the whole nidan waza, because if they are thinking too much about whether the kote is in, then they are going to hesitate before the men. With more experience, you can be more relaxed about it and just recognise when the kote succeeds.
What makes you think that "proper form" always means fumikomi-ashi?

I'm sorry if I was unclear. I am saying that a "Traditionalist view" like that of my past sensei would very much abhor the lack of fumikomi on the kote. I personally use two fumikomi, but I do not think that this is the only way. I was simply presenting one opinion that I have encountered frequently.

[Ignatz]

We practice Ai Kote Men a lot. Every thing people have been talking about is amplified when the other guy is coming at you full speed.
This is where I really learned (and am still learning) that I have to make the other guy attack first so that I can be faster than him. If I wait for his attack I lose the kote and the kote men doesn't matter.

In addition, with the other guy coming at you the maii is way different therefore your steps have to be way smaller.

I get a really good one every couple weeks or so.

[mark]

This is where I really learned (and am still learning) that I have to make the other guy attack first so that I can be faster than him. If I wait for his attack I lose the kote and the kote men doesn't matter.
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Hi Ignatz,
I don't understand what you mean. Your first sentence seems to contradict your second.
Is it important for your opponent, or for you to attack first?
Alternately, are you saying that your attack (seme?) is making the other guy attack?
Just trying to understand.

[Ignatz]

Hi Ignatz,
I don't understand what you mean. Your first sentence seems to contradict your second.
Is it important for your opponent, or for you to attack first?
Alternately, are you saying that your attack (seme?) is making the other guy attack?
Just trying to understand.

First off let me say this, most of the people I train with regularly are very fast. If you wait for the other person to attack, unless you are very, very fast, you will lose. If you pressure him into attacking first you can often beat him.
It sounds wierd but it is true. This is the true debana technique, not the waiting and maybe picking him off. Your pressure (seme) makes him attack so in a sense, you are attacking first but he is the one that commits and when he does, he loses.

As a bonus, one of my teachers pointed out that if you get good at this the other guys get tense and don't make the first attack, which makes them vulnerable. You can kind of "freeze" them. I'm not so good at that.
Yet.