Ninjitsu, honorable or not?

[Wes Nazo]

Would you do something that would be considered "dishonorable" to serve a greater good? Would you really hone your skills just to do the will of an tyranical master and kill innocent men to maintain personal honor? What kind of "honor" is that?

[Rouisu]

This is a subjective thread. It all depends on how you classify 'martial art'. Do you consider an art one where you learn how to fight? Or one where you improve one's self. In my opinion, ninjitsu satisfies both. In terms of combat, you do learn how to fight and you would get more fit. In terms of self-improvement, well if you consider 'survivalist' and 'carpe diem' (seize the moment) state of mind a good one, then yes, ninjitsu is a martial art.

Ninjas are not honourable per se, but they are not dishonourable. Again, this is subjective. INHO, they simply have different priorities to your standard samurai. Samurai believe in loyalty and service, whereas the average ninja is most probably a survivalist and 'getting the job done'. Is it wrong to want to live, but then again is it wrong to win at all costs?? In any other society, would the samurai been seen as a sword swinging fool? As for the 'ninja stabbing people in the back' thing, who is truly at fault, the one who did the deed or the one who ordered it to happen in the first place? I am pretty much on the fence on this matter so I offer both sides of the coin.

Honestly, I think Hollywood and Anime has sterotyped the ninja to the extent that we question their purpose. I don't deny they existed, but who were they, really? Were they the roof jumping assassins we all know and love, or were they people raised in unfortunate circumstances? I believe that one of the only legit ninja sensei in the modern time, Hatsumi-sensei, wrote a book on ninjitsu (from what I understand, he re-vitalized ninjitsu) will give us a decent answer. I just hope Naruto fanboys don't find this thread or they'll scream bloody murder.

Just my 0.02 bu...

[DarQik]

ninjitsu was thought of in feudal japan much as the sniper is thought of today.

AFAIK, we have a much, much higher opinion of military snipers than they had of ninja. I would think it more along the lines of current society's view of serial-killers. There's lots of text out there to be read about this; while some of it conflicts, it's an interesting study challenge if you have an interest.

As for a current martial art, there's Bujinken and another one out there. Most of it focuses on martial combat aspects. It really does have a lot more of a survivalist mentality than a pure budo mindset. There's some kata work, the usual punches and kicks, and some grappling work. It's kind of out there survival stuff, I certainly wouldn't know anything about it...

For the folks that do study seriously, I would consider it a martial art. They really do work hard at becoming close combat people. After enough study, some of them get that same cold look that some of hard core SpecOps guys get. Fortunately, that's usually training related rather than trauma, it appears to be overcome. At least the one guy I know all the way back from his high school days is now a normal guy again finally. He went all out, including travelling to study. I think he got turned off by the local loons when he came back to the states and quit.

As for the sword work, well, unless my memory fails me, the thought was, if you see a samurai run... The sword work was more for rounding out the combat training than as a specialization.


As for Naruto, that's complete silyness (and episode 151 should air on TV Tokyo next Wednesday and hopefully end the bikkouchou storyline). Anyone who takes it seriously, should be smiled at and ignored, as they will eventually reach middle school and figure it out.

[Hisham]

Samurai believe in loyalty and service, whereas the average ninja is most probably a survivalist and 'getting the job done

Ninja(s) actually did serve and were loyal to a clan of there own which would be serving a Daimyo and had a code of there own if i'm not mistaken, for instance the Iga clan (the name was used in anime and ninja movies) that was wiped out by Oda Nobunaga in the sengoku era.
E-budo has some good threads on ninjutsu.
To my limited knowledge, the honnor for was in serving one's lord till death, for both the samurai and the ninja.

[Gregory]

And if that didnt work, you would disembowl yourself. Horray disembowling!

[kendonewbie]

Not all ninja served lords. Yes, some groups like the iga group did serve a Daimyo, there were many groups were only loyal to whoever paid them.

[CitadelSamurai]

I've read a little about ninjitsu (out of boredom with nothing to do/ so i could rip apart ninja trolls in forums). As far as i can tell
1. Ninja were mecenary spies and assasions.
2. They were considered to be the lowest, most dishonorable group of people in feudal japan. And for good reason. Stabbing people in the back/killing people in there sleep/killing women and children if told to do so/espionage in general was considered to be dishonorable.
3. Traditional ninjitsu is an assasionation art, not a martial art.
4. Ninjitsu is remarably similar to the Navy SEAL training. Unarmed and armed combat is incorperated into the training, but a majority of the training revolves around avoiding confrontation and detection.

To answer your questions..no, ninjitsu is not a true martial art. It shouldn't even be considered one. And no, there was no honor in ninjitsu. All of the duties that a ninja would preform were considered to be dishonorable. If you ever meet someone who says they know ninjitsu, don't believe them. As far as i can tell, true ninjitsu dissappeared a long time ago. It got started up again in the 1980's after the movies.... There are a few people today who try to teach ninjitsu, but 99.99999999999% of the time, they're fakes.

Is ninjitsu the same as ninpo?

[kendonewbie]

I don't know. I've never heard of ninpo before. I could be one of the branches of ninjitsu....there were many different schools/clans of ninjitsu.

[Hisham]

If you want info on ninpo, do a search at E-budo or just browse the ninjutsu and ninpo section in there.

[Twobitmage]

isnt it true that the only school of ninjutsu with any sort of credible background is bujinkan? and that they claim their art traces back to prehistoric times?

[EasyMeat]

If you want to learn about ninjas, go here- http://www.realultimatepower.net/index4.htm

Excellent sight GoldenShinai... the only really usefull anser on this thred!

Thanks

EasyMeat

[Gregory]

Excellent sight GoldenShinai... the only really usefull anser on this thred!

Thanks

EasyMeat

Excellent post EasyMeat. Please spell things properly

[Mr. Donigan]

If you want to learn about ninjas, go here- http://www.realultimatepower.net/index4.htm

This site is serious. Ninjas are real. My friend Textbook Chris saw one once, and he's gone through puberty so he knows. THere are 3 facts about ninjas that cannot be disputed.
1. Ninjas are mamals
2. Ninjas can fly
3. Ninjas get superpissed off and kill people all the time.

In reality Ninjas were the boogymen of the Japanese world. Part fact, mostly fiction. They werenot, and are not considered honorable in the least. That is why the Teen Age Mutant Ninja Turtles were called the Teen Age Mutant Hero Turtles in Japan. To Call them ninjas would be like having an American cartoon called Teen Age Murdering Evil Turtles and they were good guys.

[Hai_hai]

So this subject has come up every once in a while with students at the dojo and newer martial arts practitioners. Is ninjitsu a true martial art? I have been told that it is extremely secretive and therefore if I ever do meet a practitioner I probably would not know. But aren't the martial arts guided by the martial way and bushido? Ninjitsu, to my limited knowledge, seems to be about assasination and stealth but also developing the mind and body like other martial arts. However, I cannot recall being taught or reading about assasinations being part of the martial way. If anything it is against it as it is essentially and, once again from my limited knowledge, without allowing the victim to fight back. This does not seem to follow bushido. Perhaps I am wrong. Any opinions and/or facts to illuminate the subject?

Two words, Ninja Scroll.

Watch it. It should answer all your questions.

[Gregory]

Hahahahahaha


God hai hai.


You are god.