Jodan & Nito

**alexpollijr** · 17th May 2002, 11:55 PM

Gentleman,

Do anyone have special exercises & drills to be conducted for strenghtening the body for Jodan ? I already do katate suburi a lot but I don't think that it's enough. Plus, am I at a disadvantage for being right-handed? I've been practicing jodan for a while but never got to try it in shiai

Plus, is there any Nitoryu kenshi in here?

Thank you so much,

Alex Polli

**hamish** · 19th May 2002, 12:04 PM

Try using nunchaku, I hear they're good for developing the flexibility needed to wield the shinai in jodan. Apart from that, just doing all your kendo from jodan should give you some good results.

michael tsen · 20th May 2002, 01:16 AM

you may try to do more pumping (push-up) because you need a strong shoulder to carry the shinai above your head (for more than 5 minute for every shiai) and you should forget about the right-handed problem. Just set an attack zone which your shinai can reach. Make sure you use it in geiko or shiai, otherwise you will not know how much you have learn about Jodan.

**Nishi** · 1st September 2003, 02:50 AM

Does anyone know what the competition legal specifications for nito shinai and shoto are? Weight and length etc etc?

**Neil Gendzwill** · 1st September 2003, 04:56 AM

Originally Posted by Nishi

Does anyone know what the competition legal specifications for nito shinai and shoto are? Weight and length etc etc?

Here's the current regs:
http://www.kendo-usa.org/reference/shinai_regs.htm

**Nishi** · 1st September 2003, 05:45 AM

Cheers Neil....

Do you know off the top of your head if datotsu can be scored with shoto, and if so what are the targets and details surrounding them?

I dont ask much do i...

**Kendoka** · 1st September 2003, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Nishi

Cheers Neil....

Do you know off the top of your head if datotsu can be scored with shoto, and if so what are the targets and details surrounding them?

I dont ask much do i...

There is a thread on this question elswhere in KWF, however, it is very rare to score with shoto when playing kendo nito in shiai. I was at a seminar recently when that question was put to Toda sensei (goodies page.

You can, of course attempt a cut with the shoto and make contact at the target point, but scoring in shiai would take extraordinary experience and be rare.

My guess is that when you are 7 or 8 dan, then you may be able to "score".

Keep training.

Richard

**Simon Chien** · 1st September 2003, 11:13 AM

Hi Alex,

You may want to do the single ( left hand ) hand jumping suburi holding on the end of a normal 39 shinai. I heard from many experienced kendoka that doing single hand jumping suburi is good for your kendo whether it's chudan or Jodan ..............

**ben** · 1st September 2003, 10:09 PM

All your kirikaeshi should be one-handed as well young Polli...

b

**JSchmidt** · 2nd September 2003, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by ben

All your kirikaeshi should be one-handed as well young Polli...

b

Well, the young Polli is now over a year wiser since he first posted the question

.

Jakob

**alexpollijr** · 2nd September 2003, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by JSchmidt

Well, the young Polli is now over a year wiser since he first posted the question

.

Jakob

True, lots of questions have been brought back from the dead these days. Must be a good sign, though, that they are still relevant. Or not.

Truth is, katate choyaku suburi is do-able these days. Rounds and rounds of katate kirikaeshi are not. It's interesting, though. When the receiver lets it hit the Men things are so much easier then when motodachi receives with the shinai. The futon seems to absorb all of the momentum, allowing me to pull the shinai back easily. However, the shinai gives back part of the force of the hit, thus making each return unpredictable.

The thing is, I don't know about the other nito and jodan people around ( OW, Jakob, Itokazu, Inouye, etc ) but my biggest problem today is dealing with suriage oji. It's hard to bring the shinai back when the aite deflects it in mid-flight. The picture below is en example of that. My aite's strike went right through the center, deflecting my own men attempt with the daito and smacking right through my head, since the shoto was a little to the right at that moment.

Tough business guys.

- Alexandre

**Old Warrior** · 3rd September 2003, 01:28 AM

"It's hard to bring the shinai back when the aite deflects it in mid-flight."

This was the approximate subject of a short lecture I had from Master Seong. We have a language barrier and but for his being able to demonstrate - it would be tough to learn anything, but I believe I got his point. His being able to show me the "right way" is "everything".

He conveyed that the daito strike is not primaritly a downward motion, but a forward one. When you miss, the wrist should bend back as you continue forward momentum. (I apologize for my poor descriptive text) Thus if you miss (or are parried/deflected) he wants me to continue forward into the opponent AND as the daito extends - the shoto should rise up to protect your men. Eventually, you find yourself with the swords crossed in front of your face and you are safe - for the moment.

I am having trouble with so many things this is just one. The entire philosophy of nito kendo is different than itto. I am constantly being corrected that I am too close to my opponent and that I need more patience. This is totally contrary to the aggressive itto combination attack style that is practised.

Forgive me, I have tried to contribute what I could from my limited understanding.

**alexpollijr** · 3rd September 2003, 02:11 AM

Actually it's an interesting point. If you get to read 'Musashi no Ken', that Musashi Kai book on nito, (http://www.buyubooks.com/product_details.cfm?id=10616) they don't talk about this daito raise to block the incoming men from the opponent, because it seems that they actually they believe every opponent will be tricked into Osaete-Men ( which I believe is the maneuver Itokazu used on that denmark guy on the kumdovj video Matsuda sensei posted here on KWF).

Of course, I try to execute the manuver as a forward one ( as you can see here - http://cygnus.pucrs.br/men1.jpg ) and 'lock in' if I miss but even so a skilled opponent can deflect the daito and break in to your men before you can stop him with the daito. If you jump in for the men strike worried that he'll hit you in return, it'll end up being a half-assed attempt. At least that's what I think.

I trust that nito has been a difficult experience for you, especially because you took it so early, as I believe you're not of a dan grade yet. All the distance and center notions are so very different and having to coordinate both arms to a result that is actually nice to watch (not the 'bamboo everywhere' stickfight that is often seen on nito matches) is a tough deal.

- Alexandre

Originally Posted by Old Warrior

I am having trouble with so many things this is just one. The entire philosophy of nito kendo is different than itto. I am constantly being corrected that I am too close to my opponent and that I need more patience. This is totally contrary to the aggressive itto combination attack style that is practised.

Forgive me, I have tried to contribute what I could from my limited understanding.

**Old Warrior** · 3rd September 2003, 02:53 AM

"I trust that nito has been a difficult experience for you, especially because you took it so early, as I believe you're not of a dan grade yet. All the distance and center notions are so very different and having to coordinate both arms to a result that is actually nice to watch (not the 'bamboo everywhere' stickfight that is often seen on nito matches) is a tough deal."

It has been a marvelous challenge. I am not easily frustrated and when I encounter something I cannot, immediately, do - I just practice it until I can. That is not to say I can do anything very well at this point. But, I will say that doing nito has allowed me to focus on doing a smaller number of techniques, in greater repetition. Initially, the problem was pure strength as it was much harder to be able to control 2 swords than 1 and a simple large men needed to be relearned when done with 1 hand. Also, I cannot control the daito with my left, so all the footwork is now reversed as my left foot is now forward. And, the language barrier makes my progress somewhat limited as I have a zillion questions and they go unasked and unanswered. One handed suburi, if you do full and proper cuts is still a nightmare (I maxed out at 250).

If I cannot translate the given exercise to a nito version - I just stick to what I have been taught and practise it over and over and over. You are right that I am learning some basic lessons for the first time in nito. But, I'm not so sure its a bad thing. I fully comprehend the need for timining and distance from my years of epee fencing. The fact that I am learning it for the first time in Kendo doing nito, doesn't seem to be a problem. I'm not saying I'm any good, only that I intellectually comprehend the concepts and how important they are.

I downloaded every one of the nito techniques from your website and watched them in looped version until I can see every aspect of how you do it. THANK YOU! I then reverse everything, in my mind, so I can see how I should do it.