shodan respect

[billyboy]

hi all i was wondering what kendoka on this site thought about the amount of respect they have for the opinion of lower dan grades. as a shodan i dont feel as my opinion counts for alot but am interested in what lower and higher grades think.
i dont think i have the skills to give people advice on their kendo and feel awkward telling people when they have an obvious fault. should i just leave it to the higher grades to pick up.

no deep philosophy please, and no ask your sensei!!

[MikeW]

Part of the answer lies in how your dojo is organized. In some dojo shodan may be one of the higher ranked kenshi and as such would have more input. In other dojos there are enough higher ranked people that shodan are not much input or role in instruction. I think that all kenshi should get respect as long as they deserve respect by their actions, but in terms of the type of respect a sensei or high ranked kenshi gets it is not the same level of respect.

As for comments on people that have what you consider to an obvious fault in their kendo... you should share your experience with them but in a humble way. You are doing them a disservice if you see them doing something wrong and don't let them know. You say not to answer 'ask your sensei'.. but when in your own dojo you certainly always should ask your sensei or senpai if they feel you should be correcting others kendo.

[billyboy]

You say not to answer 'ask your sensei'.. but when in your own dojo you certainly always should ask your sensei or senpai if they feel you should be correcting others kendo.

thanks mike in saying this im trying to say no smart alec "ask your sensei" remarks as this acheives nothing. if i want to ask my sensei i will and wouldnt need this post. my point being im interested in general input.

[billyboy]

my apologise if that sounds a bit arrogant its not meant in that way

[joekc6nlx]

As was pointed out in another thread, everyone learns from everyone else in the dojo. When I'm playing motodachi for the shoshinshas, I remind them that whatever they do, they are still teaching me, and not to feel self-conscious.

Whenever our shodan members speak to me about my kendo, I listen. I figure that if nothing else, I will give them the respect of listening to them. If what they say is in conflict with what sensei (nanadan) says, then I politely thank them, and continue doing what sensei wants me to do. I refuse to believe that I cannot get along with anyone in the dojo, regardless of what rank they are. After all, they have been extremely patient with me during the almost 2 years I've been studying.

Regardless of the rank of every other person in the dojo, shodan deserves respect. It is a step that says you have gotten the fundamentals down, now you're ready to start learning the intricacies of the art.

BTW, congratulations on making shodan - I don't know when you passed your exam, but nonetheless, congratulations!

[Neil Gendzwill]

Regardless of the rank of every other person in the dojo, shodan deserves respect. It is a step that says you have gotten the fundamentals down, now you're ready to start learning the intricacies of the art.

That's what it means in some martial arts. I'd peg that particular level as sandan in kendo. Not that any of us ever masters the basics, but that is the last level where the evaluation is largely on the physical.

[mark]

hi all i was wondering what kendoka on this site thought about the amount of respect they have for the opinion of lower dan grades. as a shodan i dont feel as my opinion counts for alot but am interested in what lower and higher grades think.
i dont think i have the skills to give people advice on their kendo and feel awkward telling people when they have an obvious fault. should i just leave it to the higher grades to pick up.

no deep philosophy please, and no ask your sensei!!

I am not sure it is a question of respect. As a shodan, for me it is a question of competence. I am still learning how to attack and from time to time I have a glimpse of seme. Since my knowledge is so limited, although my advice might be accurate, the timing or emphasis of my comments might be redundant or even wrong.

If I am leading a class, so be it. I do the best I can and try to do no harm. However I am very glad to pass the mike to someone who is more experienced and competent. Is that all that different from someone who is nidan, sandan, or even godan in a club with several hachidan?

[Ignatz]

You raise three separate issues.

First:

. . .as a shodan i dont feel as my opinion counts for alot

Second:

i dont think i have the skills to give people advice on their kendo

and Finally, you

feel awkward telling people when they have an obvious fault.

I would answer:
First, does the opinion of a shodan matter? I'll give you the answer I learned in Law School, "It depends". It depends on a multitude of factors because all shodan are not the same. It also depends upon the question upon which advice is sought or given. See, for example, various discussions of "seme". Many people can recognize it, but I don't think I have seen anybody say how to do it. So there really is no answer to that question.

Second, Do you have the skills or not? If you don't, then probably your opinion doesn't count for much. If you do and honestly think you don't, then maybe you should reevaluate your opinion of your skills. I hate to say it but maybe you should ask your sensei if he thinks you have the skills. Also the question revolves around what advice is sought. So the answer to this question is "It depends."

Finally, feeling awkward is a personality issue. Is it a flaw? Can you guess what I think the answer is going to be? Right, "It depends".

I'm not trying to be a weizenheimer here, these are not simple questions. My answers are those of someone with a significant amount of life experience and more than a few years of kendo training. I think that if you sit yourself down and give yourself a good talking to about these questions, they will answer themselves.

[nodachi]

I think that the advice system can be easily thought of through sempai/kohai. Shut up and listen to those above you. Help those below you. The important thing is to give advice to the level of your own competence, like others have mentioned. Giving advice from shodan rank for me was always limited to very basics. Things like when they are not striking straight or their footwork is goofy or basic things that are greatly important for being the kendo foundation, but not too subtle that I couldn't teach it. The important thing to remember is not to fall under whoever made up the crappy translation of shodan being the "black belt level". Shodan is a beginning, it is great to pass shodan, congrats, but compared to real "black belt level" shodan is so far from it.

[JSchmidt]

It's all relative. If there's already teachers/seniors fixing basic stuff on people, then it's not your job. Obviously remind beginners of reigi, help them with equipment, etc, remind them to cut big, etc. If you're nearer the top end of the hierachy, then yes, it might be a good idea to help out...however (sorry) ask first, if the senior/teachers want you to help out. (Unless it's implied).
As for respect, it's earned through actions and not grades. Train hard, be approachable and soon people will come to you for help.

Jakob

[stuartwilson]

There is a Japanese saying (that I can't remember right now) that says you are to look out for the person next to you. When people are lined up according to rank, that means to the person immediately below you in rank. The advice that you give depends on what you know, of course, but the obligation to pass on Kendo does not begin at a certain rank.

I give out advice on this board, and I'm not even a shodan. (Maybe this fall, if I work hard....)

[Old Warrior]

I'm not trying to be a weizenheimer here, these are not simple questions. My answers are those of someone with a significant amount of life experience and more than a few years of kendo training. I think that if you sit yourself down and give yourself a good talking to about these questions, they will answer themselves.

I see it as kind of simple. If I hit you in the head, three times in a row and you ask me how I was able to do it - I'll tell you. If we bout and I win, everytime, I'll tell you what I'm thinking and what I am seeing in your kendo, that allows me to win if you ask. I never offer gratuitous advice to anyone unless they are substantially less skilled and ranked and I would never offer advice to an equal rank or someone higher, regardless of what our relative skills may be.

As a shodan, I am no where's near skilled enough to teach anyone, anything and I would never be so presumptuous to think otherwise. I keep my opinions to myself, unless asked, and only offer gratuitous help to someone who is substantially below my skill level. This doesn't mean that I don't have opinions, I just keep them to myself as I recognize that they are are probably of minimal value. And, we have the privilege of learning from a 7th Dan, so I think its only right to know my place and be the humble student, that I am.

[yohed55]

At my dojo, the highest ranked kenshi there, my sempai, was a shodan (testing for nidan soon). Him and the other top kenshi all ended up moving to a diffirent dojo (which I will soon be attending). So after they all left, I was left as the top kenshi 3 out of 4 times. I HAVE ONLY BEEN DOING KENDO FOR 6 MONTHS. This was quite alarming to me. What I'm trying to get across here is that I respect a Shodan as a teacher, and I would see no problem in you instructing students.

[DCPan]

hi all i was wondering what kendoka on this site thought about the amount of respect they have for the opinion of lower dan grades. as a shodan i dont feel as my opinion counts for alot but am interested in what lower and higher grades think.
i dont think i have the skills to give people advice on their kendo and feel awkward telling people when they have an obvious fault. should i just leave it to the higher grades to pick up.

no deep philosophy please, and no ask your sensei!!

I once asked a koryu kenjutsu practitioner what he thought of all that keppan and reiho hooplah.

He told me, "There is formality in the absence of a relationship".

I think when you know your relationship with your sensei and your dojomate, the answer would be self-evident.

FWIW.

[billyboy]

yes i suppose good kendo and approachability are the main factors of repect regardless of rank.its interesting to see someone mention the shodan/black belt comparisan which i suppose this entire thread is about really.
meaning as you gain your "black belt" you think things will be different but then realise its all the same, and you still have lots to learn!
i suppose lower rank members of the dojo do look up to me in a way and show me respect, but its probably myself thinking that im not worthy of that respect which has made me write this thread.