Scotts Question?

**satsumaruma** · 18th February 2006, 07:52 AM

In another thread ScottUk asked if anyone knew the names of the original Sensei who devised Seitei (and their Ryu if possible).

He asked for the original 12 Ryu and I noted that I had read that it may have been 16.

So please don't be shy, I for one would like to recieve information on this so if anyone out there has some idea it would be much appreciated.

Oh, and please please let's not degenerate into arguments about the validity of Seitei.

Lee

**Solinde** · 18th February 2006, 05:01 PM

I cannot claim to really know anything about this, unfortunately, but here is what some qualified googling led me to:

Twelve people, who were considered the top masters of iai, were asked to develop the standardized set of iai, drawing upon their own classical iai schools for inspiration.

The seitei iai gata included the first seven kata, which were derived and modified from classical iai schools. The first two kata, Mae and Ushiro, came from the Ohmori-ryu. The third, Ukenagashi, was from kata found in the Ohmori-ryu and the Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu. The fourth kata, Tsuka Ate, was similar to tate hiza techniques of the Eishin-ryu. Then the next kata, Kesa Giri, was derived from the Hoki-ryu. The Morote Tsuki kata was a thrusting technique found in many different iai schools. (2)
As the teaching of the seitei iai was refined, it was decided to add three more kata to further round out a student's training. The new kata were introduced in 1981. The eighth kata, Ganmen Ate, was derived from the Muso Shinden-ryu oku iai methods. Soete Tsuki came from a famous Hoki-ryu technique, and the tenth kata, Shiho Giri, was also from a Hoki-ryu kata.

Both quotes are from http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue3/seite.html

You'll have to decide for yourself if you think that's a trustworthy source. Unfortunately, nowhere in the article there is any reference to who these 12 people should have been.

**satsumaruma** · 18th February 2006, 06:36 PM

Thanks Solinde,

it seems from this that the twelve came from just three Ryu (MSR, MJER and Hoki).

I can see Mae and Ushiro coming from the Omori Ryu MJER sets but Seitei Ukenagashi is very different to the Omori one.

I tried Googling as well but couldn't find anything - you would think that something like this would have been recorded for posterity!

Lee

**chidokan** · 18th February 2006, 07:00 PM

try E-Budo... they have loads of stuff on seitei in the archives, and I have seen several names there linked with its conception. It may take some digging though....

**Niten Ninja** · 18th February 2006, 07:19 PM

According to the book Flashing Steel, someone called Masaoka Kazumi was the MJER representative.

**Mr. T.** · 18th February 2006, 08:12 PM

I got this from a VKIJF (a part of the All Belgium Kendo Federation) iai manual. Here we go, the "original" sensei involved in the development of the ZNKR seitei:
- Muto S. (9th dan)
- Yoshizawa I. (9th dan)
- Masaoka (9th dan)
- Yamatsuta J. (9th dan)
- Yamamoto H. (9th dan)
- Kamimoto E. (9th dan)
- Danzaki T. (9th dan)
- Suetsugu T. (8th dan)
- Omura T. (8th dan)
- Nakadu H. (8th dan)
- Suwayama S. (8th dan)

I don't know their ryu. Maybe someone else can figure that out, but it's a start.

**Mr. T.** · 18th February 2006, 09:00 PM

found these links (I love google):
http://www.budogalicia.com/iaido/seitei.html
http://www.zanshin-madrid.com/iaido/...i/seteiai1.htm

I have no source to check if they are correct, but it looks that way.

**Solinde** · 19th February 2006, 01:49 AM

Originally Posted by Mr. T.

I have no source to check if they are correct, but it looks that way.

They are not saying the same things really though...both names and what style they were differs somewhat.

**Andrei Arefiev** · 19th February 2006, 09:45 PM

satsumaruma,

The problem with the following two links, posted by Mr. T., is that they give the names for two different committees: the one who set up seitei in 1969 (second link) and the one that added three more kata in 1977 (first link). As you may note, some people, like Danzaki-sensei and Masaoka-sensei, were members of both committees.

Originally Posted by Mr. T.

found these links (I love google):
http://www.budogalicia.com/iaido/seitei.html
http://www.zanshin-madrid.com/iaido/...i/seteiai1.htm

**satsumaruma** · 19th February 2006, 02:23 AM

Danku Mr T,

from what you have sourced I think I may have made some headway with this.

The following is a list I have compiled from the information in those Spanish websites and the Belgian one.
I suspect that Masaoka Ichijitsu and Masaoka Kazumi are one and the same as well as Yamatsuta Jukichi and Yamatsuta Shigeyoshi. This would bring me back to the 16 that I had heard about. If this suspicion of mine is wrong please tell me.

There is also some contradiction on the grade of Sawayama Shuzo - any advice on this is gratefully received

This is the compilation so far;

Sensei Dan Ryu
Muto Shyuzo 9 HASEGAWA EISHIN
Yoshizawa Kazuki 9 HOKI
Masaoka Ichijitsu 9 MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
Yamamoto Haruske 9 MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
Terai Tomotaka 9 HASEGAWA EISHIN
Suetsugu Tamezo 8 MUSO SHINDEN
Yamatsuta Shigeyoshi 9 MUSO SHINDEN
Kamimoto Eiichi 9 HASEGAWA EISHIN
Danzaki Tomoaki 9 MUSO SHINDEN
Omura Tadaji 9 MUSO SHINDEN
Nukada Hisashi 9 MUSO SHINDEN
Sawayama Shuzo 9/8 HOKI
Yamatsuta Jukichi 9 MUSO SHINDEN
Wada Hachiro 8 MUSO SHINDEN
Tsumaki Seirin 8 TAMIYA
Masoaka Kazumi 9 MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
Hashimoto Masatake 9 MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
Mitani Yoshisato 9 MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN

**satsumaruma** · 19th February 2006, 02:23 AM

Danku Mr T,

from what you have sourced I think I may have made some headway with this.

The following is a list I have compiled from the information in those Spanish websites and the Belgian one.
I suspect that Masaoka Ichijitsu and Masaoka Kazumi are one and the same as well as Yamatsuta Jukichi and Yamatsuta Shigeyoshi. This would bring me back to the 16 that I had heard about. If this suspicion of mine is wrong please tell me.

There is also some contradiction on the grade of Sawayama Shuzo - any advice on this is gratefully received

This is the compilation so far;

Sensei Dan Ryu
Muto Shyuzo 9 HASEGAWA EISHIN
Yoshizawa Kazuki 9 HOKI
Masaoka Ichijitsu 9 MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
Yamamoto Haruske 9 MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
Terai Tomotaka 9 HASEGAWA EISHIN
Suetsugu Tamezo 8 MUSO SHINDEN
Yamatsuta Shigeyoshi 9 MUSO SHINDEN
Kamimoto Eiichi 9 HASEGAWA EISHIN
Danzaki Tomoaki 9 MUSO SHINDEN
Omura Tadaji 9 MUSO SHINDEN
Nukada Hisashi 9 MUSO SHINDEN
Sawayama Shuzo 9/8 HOKI
Yamatsuta Jukichi 9 MUSO SHINDEN
Wada Hachiro 8 MUSO SHINDEN
Tsumaki Seirin 8 TAMIYA
Masoaka Kazumi 9 MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
Hashimoto Masatake 9 MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
Mitani Yoshisato 9 MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN

**satsumaruma** · 19th February 2006, 02:27 AM

Danku Mr T,

from what you have sourced I think I may have made some headway with this.

The following is a list I have compiled from the information in those Spanish websites and the Belgian one.
I suspect that Masaoka Ichijitsu and Masaoka Kazumi are one and the same as well as Yamatsuta Jukichi and Yamatsuta Shigeyoshi. This would bring me back to the 16 that I had heard about. If this suspicion of mine is wrong please tell me.

There is also some contradiction on the grade of Sawayama Shuzo - any advice on this is gratefully received

This is the compilation so far;

Sensei - Dan - Ryu
Muto Shyuzo - 9 - HASEGAWA EISHIN
Yoshizawa Kazuki - 9 - HOKI
Masaoka Ichijitsu - 9 - MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
Yamamoto Haruske - 9 - MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
Terai Tomotaka - 9 - HASEGAWA EISHIN
Suetsugu Tamezo - 8 - MUSO SHINDEN
Yamatsuta Shigeyoshi - 9 - MUSO SHINDEN
Kamimoto Eiichi - 9 - HASEGAWA EISHIN
Danzaki Tomoaki - 9 - MUSO SHINDEN
Omura Tadaji - 9 - MUSO SHINDEN
Nukada Hisashi - 9 - MUSO SHINDEN
Sawayama Shuzo - 9/8 - HOKI
Yamatsuta Jukichi - 9 - MUSO SHINDEN
Wada Hachiro - 8 - MUSO SHINDEN
Tsumaki Seirin - 8 - TAMIYA
Masoaka Kazumi - 9 - MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
Hashimoto Masatake - 9 - MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN
Mitani Yoshisato - 9 - MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN

As I said earlier please feel free to advise or comment on this.

Lee